Don’t get me wrong though, of course everyone will say they ordered their troops to not kill civilians. Even Israel does it and look at the result. Hamas shouldn’t have held any civilian hostages, especially not children and elderly that need care they are unlikely able to provide.
Issue is the Hamas are not an regular military force which makes it hard to target them, they are terrorists and exclusively targeting civilians. Every death on the 7th of october is related to them in the end, because they have decided to actively engage on civilians.
They always have been, even when they were elected to power. They retain the support of Palestinian leaders like the Palestinian PM, who refuse to condemn the 7th or Hamas.
Can you provide evidence that they exclusively target civilians given the fact that they have mostly attacked armed forces since the kibbutz was taken back?
Hamas are a lot of shitty things but this claim is factually false. And because it’s factually false, I can’t consider it much more than propaganda.
a number of October 7 deaths were caused by the IDF itself handling the situation badly and with little regard to the lives of the residents of one kibbutz.
So the IDF handeld a situation very badly and killed a number of civilians, the cause of all that would still be the terrorist act on civlians by the hamas. It does not alter any of the points I made earlier:
Every death on the 7th of october is related to them in the end, because they have decided to actively engage on civilians.
The Hamas and any other terrorist group are rabid dogs, they need to go if we ever want a free Palestine and (!) a free Israel.
What Bullshit propaganda are you on? If israel kills it’s own civilians it’s their fault. They can’t just spray fire their tanks and machine guns into their own Kibbutzes and then blame Hamas lmao.
Israel’s response to Hamas is disproportionate and careless on purpose. There is blood on many hands, but those now being starved and dying of disease and bombed hospitals is 100% Israel’s action opposed by the rest of the world. Almost Every specialist, every human rights official, every person who is qualified to comment on this is saying Israel is causing civilian deaths, crossing lines, and committing collective punishment. We are not talking about a few thousands here and there that the IDF tried to protect but couldn’t… We are talking about 10k deaths, 2k under the rubble. This is not collateral damage.
The soldiers probably made it all worst, but Hamas 100% caused civilian casualties. Even if Hamas members didn’t cause them, remember that Hamas asked anyone who had a weapon and was willing to storm the border with them to go in. There are videos of them dragging around wounded civilians and soldiers.
This is all fine except Hamas does not exclusively target civilians. It has been only targeting military vehicles and tanks since the incursion in Gaza (not counting the rockets dropped on Israeli areas, that don’t seem to be causing any casualties).
And sadly almost every death since October 7 has been caused by Israel directly killing civilians in Gaza.
We can twist the truth all we want but Hamas aren’t blanket terrorists (and I quite dislike them and their dumb strategy). Let’s not romanticize calling them some extrwme thing removed from details and context
I know that Hamas doesn’t exclusively target civilians. Hamas as the government of Gaza probably wouldn’t risk their public image by instructing it’s militants to target civilians, but their militants did cause civilian casualties and some of them looked like they were out for vengeance.
The rockets that Hamas fires are primitive and cannot be guided, and sometimes wind or other factors cause them to miss their targets. They have been targeting nearby civilian areas after giving warnings (lol), and while they are not as much of a terrorist organization as the IDF, they still have committed acts of terrorism on multiple occasions.
Well, I am sorry, but calling yourself a defense force doesn’t make your terrorism more acceptable. Your forces still target civilians, take and torture hostages, terrorize people in peaceful areas, arm and defend criminals, and target and suppress journalists. Having a court acquit your heinous crimes doesn’t make them more justifiable either.
It could both be that he told them to avoid civilians AND that fighters still attacked and killed civilians.
That being said, there is actually some evidence to sugeest that a number of October 7 deaths were caused by the IDF itself handling the situation badly and with little regard to the lives of the residents of one kibbutz. According to some eye witnesses, the soldiers who responded to the attack caused a number of homes to be demolished, and later bodies of civilians were found under the rubble. This is more consistent with what we see Israel doing in Gaza with no regard to the lives of Gazans nor the hostages.
Don’t get me wrong though, of course everyone will say they ordered their troops to not kill civilians. Even Israel does it and look at the result. Hamas shouldn’t have held any civilian hostages, especially not children and elderly that need care they are unlikely able to provide.
Issue is the Hamas are not an regular military force which makes it hard to target them, they are terrorists and exclusively targeting civilians. Every death on the 7th of october is related to them in the end, because they have decided to actively engage on civilians.
They always have been, even when they were elected to power. They retain the support of Palestinian leaders like the Palestinian PM, who refuse to condemn the 7th or Hamas.
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Can you provide evidence that they exclusively target civilians given the fact that they have mostly attacked armed forces since the kibbutz was taken back?
Hamas are a lot of shitty things but this claim is factually false. And because it’s factually false, I can’t consider it much more than propaganda.
you want evidence from me that the attacks on the 7th of october were exclusively targeted at civilians?
Read my comment again, I’m talking about AFTER that.
How about every rocket Hamas has fired towards an area that isn’t a military base. That should give you several thousand data points…
So the IDF handeld a situation very badly and killed a number of civilians, the cause of all that would still be the terrorist act on civlians by the hamas. It does not alter any of the points I made earlier:
The Hamas and any other terrorist group are rabid dogs, they need to go if we ever want a free Palestine and (!) a free Israel.
What Bullshit propaganda are you on? If israel kills it’s own civilians it’s their fault. They can’t just spray fire their tanks and machine guns into their own Kibbutzes and then blame Hamas lmao.
Israel’s response to Hamas is disproportionate and careless on purpose. There is blood on many hands, but those now being starved and dying of disease and bombed hospitals is 100% Israel’s action opposed by the rest of the world. Almost Every specialist, every human rights official, every person who is qualified to comment on this is saying Israel is causing civilian deaths, crossing lines, and committing collective punishment. We are not talking about a few thousands here and there that the IDF tried to protect but couldn’t… We are talking about 10k deaths, 2k under the rubble. This is not collateral damage.
okay, was not the point of our discussion and I did not say otherwise but thanks for sharing it I guess…
I tend to disagree on the collective punishment point, but that’s fine everybody can have his or her opinion :)
consistently moving the goalposts is one of the core hallmarks of a bad faith argument. you handled it very well!
Yeah Israel starving people is totally not like the goddamn holocaust. /s
“Opinions”, how convenient it is to have them while people just die on the hands of Israel.
The soldiers probably made it all worst, but Hamas 100% caused civilian casualties. Even if Hamas members didn’t cause them, remember that Hamas asked anyone who had a weapon and was willing to storm the border with them to go in. There are videos of them dragging around wounded civilians and soldiers.
This is all fine except Hamas does not exclusively target civilians. It has been only targeting military vehicles and tanks since the incursion in Gaza (not counting the rockets dropped on Israeli areas, that don’t seem to be causing any casualties).
And sadly almost every death since October 7 has been caused by Israel directly killing civilians in Gaza.
We can twist the truth all we want but Hamas aren’t blanket terrorists (and I quite dislike them and their dumb strategy). Let’s not romanticize calling them some extrwme thing removed from details and context
I know that Hamas doesn’t exclusively target civilians. Hamas as the government of Gaza probably wouldn’t risk their public image by instructing it’s militants to target civilians, but their militants did cause civilian casualties and some of them looked like they were out for vengeance.
The rockets that Hamas fires are primitive and cannot be guided, and sometimes wind or other factors cause them to miss their targets. They have been targeting nearby civilian areas after giving warnings (lol), and while they are not as much of a terrorist organization as the IDF, they still have committed acts of terrorism on multiple occasions.
wow.
Well, I am sorry, but calling yourself a defense force doesn’t make your terrorism more acceptable. Your forces still target civilians, take and torture hostages, terrorize people in peaceful areas, arm and defend criminals, and target and suppress journalists. Having a court acquit your heinous crimes doesn’t make them more justifiable either.
I hope this is understandable.
My bad, looks like that response was meant for the other person who claimed they only target civilians.