Yes as an overarching critique that there is no ethical consumption under capitalism. My problem is that this doesn’t absolve us from our responsibility. If choice A leaves trails of chemicals behind but costs less than B that leaves purity behind. I can definitely critique people who choose to get A.
Mainly because the other option is to choose to not consume. For example veganism doesn’t apply to what you’re saying. It’s a conscious decision based on ethical values. The same thing can be true for people who don’t use cars.
And even if there is a choice between lesser evils, it’s still a choice of consequence.
I already don’t use a car and I eat vegetarian. I’ve got the “individual choices” covered. The problem is that at some point you’re standing in the store googling every single product and their producer to find some kind of issue with it so you can’t buy it. That’s not a sustainable way to live.
Okay but this also doesn’t absolve you from your responsibility. At some point you’re going to make a decision about where your personal boundaries in weighing your options are. And if you’re not driving and eating (a lot) less animal products you’re further ahead of the curve than others. But deciding when you find things unsustainable, it is still another decision.
Most people don’t feel or don’t see a positive difference from their choice. So they let go of their responsibilities because of it. If there is no positive impact it doesn’t matter what they do, is their thinking.
While when you look in the supermarket now compared to ten years ago… Meat substitutes, vegan products, plant milks are abundant. So, things are changing, the choices people make are influential. It just isn’t immediate. But even within capitalism the market is responding to changes, from the personal choices of people like you and me. It’s slow and tedious, but things change.
You know why it’s slow though, right? Specifically the meat industry is highly subsidized and they can undersell any vegan substitute to destroy their margin in the still small and slowly growing market. Even though meat production should clearly be more expensive than some vegan substitute.
Look: Consumer can either buy a product or they don’t. I can’t make producers stop using plastic for packaging. I can only not buy their products until some producer may think of a plastic free packaging. Change always comes from the top, not from the bottom.
What you’re asking for is that consumer somehow know the details of how the products are produced. For example whether the chocolate they buy is from child slaves or not. Sure, you can read about it, but is it clearly declared in the store whether that specific chocolate is child slave free or not? The only action they can take is not buy the chocolate. Or they ask. The store clerk doesn’t know better either. The producer doesn’t have to disclose this, responds with a canned response that doesn’t say yes or no.
Chocolate is one thing. That’s not a necessity for every day life. But cars in the US. Smart phones almost everywhere. If you don’t have them, you cannot participate in life. And we need to eat too.
Look I share the same frustrations. And true change can only come from political actions. Laws, oversight, fines, taxation, enforcement… Leaving change to the market isn’t a solution to anything. We can’t consume our way out of this problem.
But that’s also not the point of our conversation, I’m trying to make clear that as a consumer you still bare responsibility over what you consume.
The problem is when people throw their hands up and just ‘get what they need’ mindlessly. That’s also a choice.
When we can make choices that are clearly better and more ethical, we should. So it is on us to do the best we can, within the system we find ourselves in. We should strive for systemic (political) change outside of consumption, as well. One doesn’t get nullified by the other.
Yes as an overarching critique that there is no ethical consumption under capitalism. My problem is that this doesn’t absolve us from our responsibility. If choice A leaves trails of chemicals behind but costs less than B that leaves purity behind. I can definitely critique people who choose to get A.
Mainly because the other option is to choose to not consume. For example veganism doesn’t apply to what you’re saying. It’s a conscious decision based on ethical values. The same thing can be true for people who don’t use cars.
And even if there is a choice between lesser evils, it’s still a choice of consequence.
I already don’t use a car and I eat vegetarian. I’ve got the “individual choices” covered. The problem is that at some point you’re standing in the store googling every single product and their producer to find some kind of issue with it so you can’t buy it. That’s not a sustainable way to live.
Okay but this also doesn’t absolve you from your responsibility. At some point you’re going to make a decision about where your personal boundaries in weighing your options are. And if you’re not driving and eating (a lot) less animal products you’re further ahead of the curve than others. But deciding when you find things unsustainable, it is still another decision.
Most people don’t feel or don’t see a positive difference from their choice. So they let go of their responsibilities because of it. If there is no positive impact it doesn’t matter what they do, is their thinking.
While when you look in the supermarket now compared to ten years ago… Meat substitutes, vegan products, plant milks are abundant. So, things are changing, the choices people make are influential. It just isn’t immediate. But even within capitalism the market is responding to changes, from the personal choices of people like you and me. It’s slow and tedious, but things change.
You know why it’s slow though, right? Specifically the meat industry is highly subsidized and they can undersell any vegan substitute to destroy their margin in the still small and slowly growing market. Even though meat production should clearly be more expensive than some vegan substitute.
Look: Consumer can either buy a product or they don’t. I can’t make producers stop using plastic for packaging. I can only not buy their products until some producer may think of a plastic free packaging. Change always comes from the top, not from the bottom.
What you’re asking for is that consumer somehow know the details of how the products are produced. For example whether the chocolate they buy is from child slaves or not. Sure, you can read about it, but is it clearly declared in the store whether that specific chocolate is child slave free or not? The only action they can take is not buy the chocolate. Or they ask. The store clerk doesn’t know better either. The producer doesn’t have to disclose this, responds with a canned response that doesn’t say yes or no.
Chocolate is one thing. That’s not a necessity for every day life. But cars in the US. Smart phones almost everywhere. If you don’t have them, you cannot participate in life. And we need to eat too.
Look I share the same frustrations. And true change can only come from political actions. Laws, oversight, fines, taxation, enforcement… Leaving change to the market isn’t a solution to anything. We can’t consume our way out of this problem.
But that’s also not the point of our conversation, I’m trying to make clear that as a consumer you still bare responsibility over what you consume.
The problem is when people throw their hands up and just ‘get what they need’ mindlessly. That’s also a choice.
When we can make choices that are clearly better and more ethical, we should. So it is on us to do the best we can, within the system we find ourselves in. We should strive for systemic (political) change outside of consumption, as well. One doesn’t get nullified by the other.