If you were to divide the world into two camps, one with 1 milliard people and another with 7 milliard, and they wanted opposite things, would the 7 milliard group not represent most of the world? Now, I don’t want you to dox yourself, but I ask rhetorically which camp the country you’re from falls in.
Here’s a map in case you’re genuinely unsure. !alwaysthesamemap@lemmygrad.ml
Do you think Russia does what it does for the greater good of these people? Isn’t Russia doing basically what every other imperial power did since long time ago? Conquer or at least control, because they want to be imperial power too?
Sure, US ain’t no saint, EU neither, nobody is basically. But for me personally Russia represent something worse than those mentioned before. Not regular russian people, I even have some in my family, but people in power. Those who turn one of the richest country (in terms of natural resources) into powerty to build their billion dollar mansions, yachts and other luxury, while regular people can count themself lucky if they have flushing toilet and asphalt road in their street.
If you want to know a bit of my background, I live in a country that was 40 years under USSR “occupation”, so I’m obviously not a big fan…
I’m ok with downvotes, that’s what free speech is for. At least I don’t have to avoid passing around windows or drinking tea.
Do you think Russia does what it does for the greater good of these people?
No. It does not matter why they do something, they’re doing it, and it benefits the 7 milliard people.
Isn’t Russia doing basically what every other imperial power did since long time ago? Conquer or at least control, because they want to be imperial power too?
What they’re doing in Ukraine isn’t imperialism, it’s self defense. (Self defense doesn’t automatically mean it’s justified. As with all things there’s appropriate response and degrees). Would they partake in imperialism if given an opportunity? Absolutely, it’s a capitalist dictatorship, they don’t have morals.
But for me personally Russia represent something worse than those mentioned before.
What do they represent? “Those who (exploit) rich countries () to build their billion dollar mansions ()” is the enemy of the global majority. Carefully consider the USA and the EU nations’ track-record. Russia by contrast has only existed since the 90s.
If you want to know a bit of my background, I live in a country that was 40 years under USSR “occupation”, so I’m obviously not a big fan…
And has your country improved? Is employment more dignified and abundant, are more people educated, class differences smaller, is infrastructure and housing being built more rapidly?
At least I don’t have to avoid passing around windows or drinking tea.
they are wankers for hanging around inactive threads downvoting without explaining their disagreements.
It’s not an inactive thread, it was posted day ago and it’s literally listed close to the top in the “active” list. Also edit out your boorish insults, like anyone need to elaborate every single time when downvoting a bootlicker like that for spewing anticommunist comprador lies about “USSR occupation”.
The nested thread is inactive. kurcatovium wasn’t doing bootlicking, they’re being faced with a big accusation that goes against their experienced reality. “The majority of the world disagrees with you”, and given that I think they have been respectful in interacting with me and more on the point, they didn’t justify imperial actions.
Also edit out your boorish insults
Okay.
like anyone need to elaborate every single time when downvoting a bootlicker like that for spewing anticommunist comprador lies about “USSR occupation”.
Yes, you’re right. But it’s what they were taught and they have no reason to investigate if no one gives them one.
The fuck man? Why would I lie about it? You’re acting like you’re some kind of superior being believing in communism. But I tell you one thing. On paper it is wonderful idea (it truly is), but people are people, so it will never work as history proved multiple times.
EDIT: Just checked your username. If it’s not just funny made up thing, you should know a thing or two about it already.
so it will never work as history proved multiple times.
What the fuck does it mean for a system to “work”? Real world attempts at communism lead to the most rapid and widespread improvements in human welfare in human history, if it didn’t “work”, then literally no system every has or ever can. But I’m going to assume you get around this by holding a massive double standard where only communism is expected to produce a perfect utopia or else be permanently declared a failure and impossible.
On paper it is wonderful idea (it truly is),
What exactly do you think communism is, on paper or otherwise? Do you actually know what communists believe, or just what anti communists tell you we believe?
Does it really? I believe it does, to certain degree, but only until Russia exploit those countries the same (or worse) than others did before.
What they’re doing in Ukraine isn’t imperialism, it’s self defense.
I do not agree on this one. I just believe it started as Putin’s wish to reunite USSR to its former glory. His words years ago: “The breakup of the Soviet Union was the greatest geopolitical tragedy of the 20th century.”
And has your country improved? Is employment more dignified and abundant, are more people educated, class differences smaller, is infrastructure and housing being built more rapidly?
Yes, vastly improved in most regards. Employment is more meaningful nowadays (for people that are willing to work) and general standard of living improved unbelievably. Not sure if it was my country specific, but being unemployed was illegal back then. So it led to existence of jobs that were complete fake (existed just on paper, mostly jobs for friend-of-a-friend among elites) or jobs that were absolutely meaningless (like moving stuff from one place to another and then back) and time and will wasting (e.g night time security of empty warehouse). Simply put “jobs” just for the sake of not being unemployed. This stopped, because nobody would waste money on these jobs now. Some people miss them though, because they used to get paid for nothing.
Education is another example. Back then state had “assessment” on everyone and e.g. when parents were not members of communist party it was almost impossible to get to university (sometimes even high school). Now it’s on everyone’s abilities, universities are free (of both charge and prejudice) and if one is able enough, there’s nothing stopping him.
Class differences is tough question. This one did not really improve, it more like side-stepped. Nowadays there’s this kind of a few extremely rich people, followed by society divided by a bit wider scissors, but… There are options now to get better life, be it education, hard work, or even traveling abroad for work. Back then there weren’t (to my knowledge) this extremely wealthy people, but there still was quite large amount of “elites” that were way way way above everyone else. Most people were more or less forced to live just above poverty line (state controlled everything, including job transfers). Imagine waiting months to years to be able to buy stuff like fridge or washing machine (either due to lack of money or being too far in waiting list). These rules were set in stone and chance of getting oneself even one bracket above was minimal in legal manners (thus bribing thrived). Is it ideal now? Definitely not, but I wouldn’t go back.
Infrastructure and housing. Well, again it’s somewhere in between. I’d say in terms of housing it used to be “quantity above quality” back then and this one switched now. New houses (even old renovated ones) are far superior to what was standard back then. It ain’t cheap though. If you lowered your standards to previous era levels, you can still get your own house/flat pretty cheap - surprisingly nobody wants to do that, because people want fancy things. In terms of infrastructure, we’re seeing dark side of capitalism (or peoples dumbness). It’s often like this: There’s going to be new road, but city/state doesn’t really care and pick cheapest contractor. The road obviously sucks and needs to be repaired almost immediately. But the road already cost a lot, so what happens? Cheapest contractor is selected so the repair is botched too… Who doesn’t swear on roads in his country, though? Luckily other parts of infrastructure are not that bad.
but only until Russia exploit those countries the same (or worse) than others did before.
Okay, but they can’t exploit them worse. The west still exists and unless their rule becomes completely dominant (Giving them room to punish and set examples), they’ll continue to give countries the same terms they’re giving them now at the minimum. I’m now talking about countries that don’t have to fear immediate invasion by Russia or the USA. Countries with some amount of sovereignty, but not enough to be able to afford making an enemy of the west.
Russia, India, China, whoever (China has caveats but it’s not important for this point) need to show any nations willing step outside Empire’s umbrella that the terms are better.
Maybe if the west collapsed, and all of Russia’s rivals collapsed, Russia could enact worse imperialism and colonialism than what’s there now. But for many many decades to come, the west’s relative power will be very high.
More powerful sovereign economies gives all small economies more choices in how to deal and enrich themselves. What I mean with sovereign economies is economies that are resilient to manipulation by the USA e.g. sanctions and invasion. If being sanctioned by the USA would completely destroy your economy, you would never risk disobeying them. If the BRICS countries are completely immune, both to sanctions and to invasion, that means that as a third country your risk is less when doing business with BRICS. If the USA sanctions you, you’ll still have a powerful ally and trading partner. It’s not risk-free, and having two poles isn’t hugely different from having a hegemon. But multipolarity, which is the real effect Russia winning this war is having, is good for everyone but the hegemon.
I just believe it started as Putin’s wish to reunite USSR to its former glory. His words years ago: “The breakup of the Soviet Union was the greatest geopolitical tragedy of the 20th century.”
It was a geopolitical tragedy, because it created a hegemon. Putin’s words would have some meaning if he had any power to make that happen, but he doesn’t. Him wishing The Soviet Union existed doesn’t mean any of the post-soviet countries wish they were Russia. The Soviet Union could offer a system that was attractive to people from those countries. What can Russia offer? Practically nothing. The Ukrainian areas that Russia has incorporated were all areas with strong Russian support, for one reason or another. Invading and annexing hostile areas is much harder. Beyond their ability, surely.
I do not agree [that the invasion of Ukraine is self-defence].
Say Russia didn’t invade Ukraine. What would happen? NATO has been expanding, that isn’t disputable, Russia has set red lines (you can think these red lines are bullshit), and those red lines have been crossed. Whether the red line is reasonable or not, the fact is Russia used to have to power to have their red lines respected, they would’ve lost that power without the invasion of Ukraine, and they now again have that power. By invading Ukraine, Russia has stopped itself from rapidly losing power. Some people might consider this already self-defence. I don’t think you should. But by being surrounded by NATO, by many of the post-Soviet countries and EU countries adopting strong anti-Russia sentiments (before the invasion), by the USA having targetted them as a target to destroy, it’s realistic for Russia to fear attack. If someone wants to attack you, they are an enemy, and denying enemy attack vectors would then be self-defence.
To be precise, under international law, pre-emptive strikes don’t qualify. You could call any action a pre-emptive strike if it did. But I’m not looking to clear them of wrong-doing, I’m trying to find their real motivation. I believe this is their real motivation. This is consistent with Russian insistence on security guarantees, them giving multiple chances, and them pulling out of Kyiv, and them attending the peace talks in Türkiye in the first half of the war.
There’s a lot of in-depth information available on this site and others if you aren’t convinced but feel this line of thinking is worth exploring.
__
And now I will reply to the meat of the comment in the topic of your country’s development. Thank you for replying in good faith. I’m glad you feel your country is improving, and meritocratic.
You believe living conditions have improved dramatically: (I don’t use the word ‘believe’ to discredit it, but I’m addressing your subjective opinion at the moment): I must then challenge you on if the improvements have outpaced your country’s (or region, if it was part of the USSR)'s wealth, and the advance in technology. I must also challenge you on if your perception of the Soviet Union is a fair one or one formed by influence from propaganda. You can’t answer these questions, but you should consider them as analytically as you can.
For example you say people get paid to do nothing, and that’s bad. But it’s not bad for the worker. It’s bad for the nation. If the nation is losing money on that worker doing nothing, it’s in the nation’s best interest to find contributive work for that worker. We can safely assume that the nation makes choices in its best interest and will find contributive work for that person eventually. Meanwhile they’re getting a salary. People are also left outside the job market under liberalism, but they’ll be on unemployment or homeless. From just that example, while both scenarios are a failing of the system, the USSR system is better for the worker.
You then talk about a low standard in terms of everyone’s wealth and access to goods, leisure, housing etc. But consider the USSRs economic realities. It transformed very poor nations into middle income nations in a very short amount of time, all while suffering a devastating war. The priority was giving everyone something, and quality could come gradually when no one was destitute.
Again, I’m grateful that you decided to reply in good faith and value your opinions on the state of your government and country, even if I don’t agree with your conclusion regarding the USSR-local SSR relationship and the USSR as a whole.
I think we can agree that we disagree in most core parts. I could argue with you and point out that your logic can be twisted (“influence from propaganda” etc.) but I choose not to. It’s not that I sweep your comment of the table. There’s definitely some points I agree with you (not everything needs to be US/west centric), but at the same time I believe simple “falling under different hegemon’s sphere” won’t change much for the better. Part of why I came to this conclusion was studying history of my own country.
You could just be honest and admit that you’ve got no rebuttal to their extremely thorough and in depth post, but you’re too stubborn to consider changing your beliefs anyway. Not this “agree to disagree” cop out.
If you were to divide the world into two camps, one with 1 milliard people and another with 7 milliard, and they wanted opposite things, would the 7 milliard group not represent most of the world? Now, I don’t want you to dox yourself, but I ask rhetorically which camp the country you’re from falls in. Here’s a map in case you’re genuinely unsure. !alwaysthesamemap@lemmygrad.ml
Do you think Russia does what it does for the greater good of these people? Isn’t Russia doing basically what every other imperial power did since long time ago? Conquer or at least control, because they want to be imperial power too?
Sure, US ain’t no saint, EU neither, nobody is basically. But for me personally Russia represent something worse than those mentioned before. Not regular russian people, I even have some in my family, but people in power. Those who turn one of the richest country (in terms of natural resources) into powerty to build their billion dollar mansions, yachts and other luxury, while regular people can count themself lucky if they have flushing toilet and asphalt road in their street.
If you want to know a bit of my background, I live in a country that was 40 years under USSR “occupation”, so I’m obviously not a big fan…
I’m ok with downvotes, that’s what free speech is for. At least I don’t have to avoid passing around windows or drinking tea.
No. It does not matter why they do something, they’re doing it, and it benefits the 7 milliard people.
What they’re doing in Ukraine isn’t imperialism, it’s self defense. (Self defense doesn’t automatically mean it’s justified. As with all things there’s appropriate response and degrees). Would they partake in imperialism if given an opportunity? Absolutely, it’s a capitalist dictatorship, they don’t have morals.
What do they represent? “Those who (exploit) rich countries () to build their billion dollar mansions ()” is the enemy of the global majority. Carefully consider the USA and the EU nations’ track-record. Russia by contrast has only existed since the 90s.
And has your country improved? Is employment more dignified and abundant, are more people educated, class differences smaller, is infrastructure and housing being built more rapidly?
You would if you cast yourself in with the yanks. https://cpj.org/2024/03/journalist-casualties-in-the-israel-gaza-conflict/
Edit: Removed hostile language directed at other users.
It’s not an inactive thread, it was posted day ago and it’s literally listed close to the top in the “active” list. Also edit out your boorish insults, like anyone need to elaborate every single time when downvoting a bootlicker like that for spewing anticommunist comprador lies about “USSR occupation”.
The nested thread is inactive. kurcatovium wasn’t doing bootlicking, they’re being faced with a big accusation that goes against their experienced reality. “The majority of the world disagrees with you”, and given that I think they have been respectful in interacting with me and more on the point, they didn’t justify imperial actions.
Okay.
Yes, you’re right. But it’s what they were taught and they have no reason to investigate if no one gives them one.
deleted by creator
The fuck man? Why would I lie about it? You’re acting like you’re some kind of superior being believing in communism. But I tell you one thing. On paper it is wonderful idea (it truly is), but people are people, so it will never work as history proved multiple times.
EDIT: Just checked your username. If it’s not just funny made up thing, you should know a thing or two about it already.
What the fuck does it mean for a system to “work”? Real world attempts at communism lead to the most rapid and widespread improvements in human welfare in human history, if it didn’t “work”, then literally no system every has or ever can. But I’m going to assume you get around this by holding a massive double standard where only communism is expected to produce a perfect utopia or else be permanently declared a failure and impossible.
What exactly do you think communism is, on paper or otherwise? Do you actually know what communists believe, or just what anti communists tell you we believe?
Does it really? I believe it does, to certain degree, but only until Russia exploit those countries the same (or worse) than others did before.
I do not agree on this one. I just believe it started as Putin’s wish to reunite USSR to its former glory. His words years ago: “The breakup of the Soviet Union was the greatest geopolitical tragedy of the 20th century.”
Yes, vastly improved in most regards. Employment is more meaningful nowadays (for people that are willing to work) and general standard of living improved unbelievably. Not sure if it was my country specific, but being unemployed was illegal back then. So it led to existence of jobs that were complete fake (existed just on paper, mostly jobs for friend-of-a-friend among elites) or jobs that were absolutely meaningless (like moving stuff from one place to another and then back) and time and will wasting (e.g night time security of empty warehouse). Simply put “jobs” just for the sake of not being unemployed. This stopped, because nobody would waste money on these jobs now. Some people miss them though, because they used to get paid for nothing.
Education is another example. Back then state had “assessment” on everyone and e.g. when parents were not members of communist party it was almost impossible to get to university (sometimes even high school). Now it’s on everyone’s abilities, universities are free (of both charge and prejudice) and if one is able enough, there’s nothing stopping him.
Class differences is tough question. This one did not really improve, it more like side-stepped. Nowadays there’s this kind of a few extremely rich people, followed by society divided by a bit wider scissors, but… There are options now to get better life, be it education, hard work, or even traveling abroad for work. Back then there weren’t (to my knowledge) this extremely wealthy people, but there still was quite large amount of “elites” that were way way way above everyone else. Most people were more or less forced to live just above poverty line (state controlled everything, including job transfers). Imagine waiting months to years to be able to buy stuff like fridge or washing machine (either due to lack of money or being too far in waiting list). These rules were set in stone and chance of getting oneself even one bracket above was minimal in legal manners (thus bribing thrived). Is it ideal now? Definitely not, but I wouldn’t go back.
Infrastructure and housing. Well, again it’s somewhere in between. I’d say in terms of housing it used to be “quantity above quality” back then and this one switched now. New houses (even old renovated ones) are far superior to what was standard back then. It ain’t cheap though. If you lowered your standards to previous era levels, you can still get your own house/flat pretty cheap - surprisingly nobody wants to do that, because people want fancy things. In terms of infrastructure, we’re seeing dark side of capitalism (or peoples dumbness). It’s often like this: There’s going to be new road, but city/state doesn’t really care and pick cheapest contractor. The road obviously sucks and needs to be repaired almost immediately. But the road already cost a lot, so what happens? Cheapest contractor is selected so the repair is botched too… Who doesn’t swear on roads in his country, though? Luckily other parts of infrastructure are not that bad.
Okay, but they can’t exploit them worse. The west still exists and unless their rule becomes completely dominant (Giving them room to punish and set examples), they’ll continue to give countries the same terms they’re giving them now at the minimum. I’m now talking about countries that don’t have to fear immediate invasion by Russia or the USA. Countries with some amount of sovereignty, but not enough to be able to afford making an enemy of the west.
Russia, India, China, whoever (China has caveats but it’s not important for this point) need to show any nations willing step outside Empire’s umbrella that the terms are better. Maybe if the west collapsed, and all of Russia’s rivals collapsed, Russia could enact worse imperialism and colonialism than what’s there now. But for many many decades to come, the west’s relative power will be very high.
More powerful sovereign economies gives all small economies more choices in how to deal and enrich themselves. What I mean with sovereign economies is economies that are resilient to manipulation by the USA e.g. sanctions and invasion. If being sanctioned by the USA would completely destroy your economy, you would never risk disobeying them. If the BRICS countries are completely immune, both to sanctions and to invasion, that means that as a third country your risk is less when doing business with BRICS. If the USA sanctions you, you’ll still have a powerful ally and trading partner. It’s not risk-free, and having two poles isn’t hugely different from having a hegemon. But multipolarity, which is the real effect Russia winning this war is having, is good for everyone but the hegemon.
It was a geopolitical tragedy, because it created a hegemon. Putin’s words would have some meaning if he had any power to make that happen, but he doesn’t. Him wishing The Soviet Union existed doesn’t mean any of the post-soviet countries wish they were Russia. The Soviet Union could offer a system that was attractive to people from those countries. What can Russia offer? Practically nothing. The Ukrainian areas that Russia has incorporated were all areas with strong Russian support, for one reason or another. Invading and annexing hostile areas is much harder. Beyond their ability, surely.
Say Russia didn’t invade Ukraine. What would happen? NATO has been expanding, that isn’t disputable, Russia has set red lines (you can think these red lines are bullshit), and those red lines have been crossed. Whether the red line is reasonable or not, the fact is Russia used to have to power to have their red lines respected, they would’ve lost that power without the invasion of Ukraine, and they now again have that power. By invading Ukraine, Russia has stopped itself from rapidly losing power. Some people might consider this already self-defence. I don’t think you should. But by being surrounded by NATO, by many of the post-Soviet countries and EU countries adopting strong anti-Russia sentiments (before the invasion), by the USA having targetted them as a target to destroy, it’s realistic for Russia to fear attack. If someone wants to attack you, they are an enemy, and denying enemy attack vectors would then be self-defence.
To be precise, under international law, pre-emptive strikes don’t qualify. You could call any action a pre-emptive strike if it did. But I’m not looking to clear them of wrong-doing, I’m trying to find their real motivation. I believe this is their real motivation. This is consistent with Russian insistence on security guarantees, them giving multiple chances, and them pulling out of Kyiv, and them attending the peace talks in Türkiye in the first half of the war.
There’s a lot of in-depth information available on this site and others if you aren’t convinced but feel this line of thinking is worth exploring.
__
And now I will reply to the meat of the comment in the topic of your country’s development. Thank you for replying in good faith. I’m glad you feel your country is improving, and meritocratic.
You believe living conditions have improved dramatically: (I don’t use the word ‘believe’ to discredit it, but I’m addressing your subjective opinion at the moment): I must then challenge you on if the improvements have outpaced your country’s (or region, if it was part of the USSR)'s wealth, and the advance in technology. I must also challenge you on if your perception of the Soviet Union is a fair one or one formed by influence from propaganda. You can’t answer these questions, but you should consider them as analytically as you can.
For example you say people get paid to do nothing, and that’s bad. But it’s not bad for the worker. It’s bad for the nation. If the nation is losing money on that worker doing nothing, it’s in the nation’s best interest to find contributive work for that worker. We can safely assume that the nation makes choices in its best interest and will find contributive work for that person eventually. Meanwhile they’re getting a salary. People are also left outside the job market under liberalism, but they’ll be on unemployment or homeless. From just that example, while both scenarios are a failing of the system, the USSR system is better for the worker.
You then talk about a low standard in terms of everyone’s wealth and access to goods, leisure, housing etc. But consider the USSRs economic realities. It transformed very poor nations into middle income nations in a very short amount of time, all while suffering a devastating war. The priority was giving everyone something, and quality could come gradually when no one was destitute.
Again, I’m grateful that you decided to reply in good faith and value your opinions on the state of your government and country, even if I don’t agree with your conclusion regarding the USSR-local SSR relationship and the USSR as a whole.
I think we can agree that we disagree in most core parts. I could argue with you and point out that your logic can be twisted (“influence from propaganda” etc.) but I choose not to. It’s not that I sweep your comment of the table. There’s definitely some points I agree with you (not everything needs to be US/west centric), but at the same time I believe simple “falling under different hegemon’s sphere” won’t change much for the better. Part of why I came to this conclusion was studying history of my own country.
You could just be honest and admit that you’ve got no rebuttal to their extremely thorough and in depth post, but you’re too stubborn to consider changing your beliefs anyway. Not this “agree to disagree” cop out.