Delegates at the denomination’s convention approved a stricter ban on female pastors and rejected the appeals of two churches led by women to remain in the denomination.
Yikes. There is quite a pattern developing in the religious right, in the US at least. We are turning back the clock folks.
Actual Christian here. This decision is not extreme, whatsoever, though I get that it appears extreme to non-believers and feminists. The thing to understand here is that Christians follow the Bible. And conversely, those who do not follow the Bible are not Christian. So let’s take a look at a relevant Bible passage (1 Timothy 2:11-12):
Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
Now that’s the word of God. It’s eternal, unchanging, and dictates how He wills us to live.
It’s definitely out-of-step with modern secular culture, and that’s a very good thing from the Christian perspective. We are God’s peculiar people (Titus 2:11-15).
I’s the words of many men claiming they know what God says. The divinity of Christ wasn’t even decided on the church until the 4th century during council sessions like that of Nicea.
This is the primary lens which so many who prosthelize are happy to ignore. The words in the Bible are words written by humans over centuries. It is an iterative document which is still being tweaked by people, and to claim that any part of it is the untarnished word of God is to ignore the fact that humans are terribly fallible.
The Bible was written with a Human agenda, and the faith which organized religion fetishizes is more correctly described as faith in the humans who represent their words as of divine origin. It is a faith that the human representation of a divine will is correct, and that those who claim to speak with divine authority have no incentive to misrepresent reality in exchange for positions of power, status, and wealth.
The sheer number of abuses made in the name of divinity, all ascribing to speak with the will of the single divine truth, make it incredibly obvious to anyone not indoctrinated that if 99.9% of religions are bunk by virtue of their own definition (this religion is true and others are not), the chance that 100% are is pretty high, and the chance that any truth which may have been heard is not twisted is so small as to not be worth considering.
The concept that you seem to be failing to grasp – and I can’t blame you because it escaped me as a Christian as well – is that these are rules that you are welcome to follow. Your religion tells you what you can and can’t do. You can make that choice. The problem comes when you try to apply that to anyone else who doesn’t accept it. Your religion’s rules don’t apply to me, because I’m not part of your religion.
I’m willing to coexist with Christians. But that coexistence has to go both ways.
I was raised an atheist and didn’t find Christ until adulthood, so I do grasp that it’s all voluntary. I also recognize that you can’t force anyone to be Christian against their will.
So on those points we agree. Where we differ is that I firmly believe my God is your God, and neither of us could ever change that, no matter how much we may want to. Christ came to save all people, with a focus on those who need it most. So yes, Christianity does apply to you, even though you don’t want it to.
I fully understand your “get off my back” perspective, honestly. Telling someone else how to think or what to do is a remarkably terrible way to make friends. I’m not here to be a jerk. Promise. I know you’re going to do what you’re going to do, irrespective of me. I only want to take every chance I can get to give testimony of my own experiences with God, and to follow the Great Commission for anyone who actually cares to let a seed get planted.
So does that mean we can coexist? I certainly hope so, but I recognize you may think I’m overbearing.
Where we differ is that I firmly believe my God is your God, and neither of us could ever change that, no matter how much we may want to.
That sounds like a you problem. If your god expects me to believe that it’s real, then it’s going to need to move itself to prove it. Your testimony isn’t sufficient. I’ve already been there, done that and bought the t-shirt.
So yes, Christianity does apply to you, even though you don’t want it to.
You’re entitled to think that’s the case. What you think in the privacy of your own head is your business. The moment you think you have the authority (as too many Christians do) to make me follow it is when we have a problem.
I only want to take every chance I can get to give testimony of my own experiences with God, and to follow the Great Commission for anyone who actually cares to let a seed get planted.
And this is why we can’t be friends. We’ve heard the story. We’ve heard the testimony. We remain unmoved. At this point, the only way to describe this behavior is harassment.
The world has heard the message. Let it go and leave us alone.
So does that mean we can coexist? I certainly hope so, but I recognize you may think I’m overbearing.
Christians in Europe have been highly successful at coexisting with non-Christians without harassing them. You might look into their example.
If you were raised Christian, you should know how much God loves human faith. He would never do anything to deprive us of the challenge of faith, because He knows how healthy it is for us to live on faith. Everything He directs us to do is for our own good. Revealing himself would deny us that opportunity. There will be a second coming, but by then it’ll be too late.
Let it go and leave us alone.
You know where to find us when you’re ready. Wishing you all the best.
If you were raised Christian, you should know how much God loves human faith. He would never do anything to deprive us of the challenge of faith, because He knows how healthy it is for us to live on faith. Everything He directs us to do is for our own good. Revealing himself would deny us that opportunity. There will be a second coming, but by then it’ll be too late.
The reason I’m no longer a Christian is because I committed the unforgivable sin: I put these claims to the test. There was no answer. No fire from on high to consume the altar. No dove descending from the heavens. No whisper on the wind. Just confirmation bias.
Try to survive on faith and you’ll starve quickly. Trying to convince me that your beliefs are true is just going to annoy us both. Mission accomplished.
You know where to find us when you’re ready. Wishing you all the best.
Trust me, I do know where to find you. Until I go looking for you, leave us alone.
Hey i think it would be best if you could keep any proselytising to a Christian Curious specific community. A lot of us have deconstructed but still bear the scars of religious trauma so it can lead to hostile conversations that aren’t productive for either of us. Giving some objective “this is the verse used to justify this action.” and explaining that action without devolving into “My god is your god” is fine.
People are well aware of the ‘why’ behind these types of decisions. There’s a reason Christianity is considered abhorrently sexist by a huge number of people.
It’s definitely out-of-step with modern secular culture, and that’s a very good thing from the Christian perspective
I assume you think slavery should be reinstated as well, since the new testament tells slaves to obey their earthly masters?
also even Christians can’t agree on what it means–do you know how many fucking schisms Christianity has? (and don’t ask about the one which created the Southern Baptists…)
It’s argued that Paul didn’t write Timothy 1. But beyond that, Paul was a false prophet, who took the good work of Jesus and twisted it into his own religion. I often ask Christians who they follow: Jesus or Paul?
Actual Christian here. This decision is not extreme, whatsoever, though I get that it appears extreme to non-believers and feminists. The thing to understand here is that Christians follow the Bible. And conversely, those who do not follow the Bible are not Christian. So let’s take a look at a relevant Bible passage (1 Timothy 2:11-12):
Now that’s the word of God. It’s eternal, unchanging, and dictates how He wills us to live.
It’s definitely out-of-step with modern secular culture, and that’s a very good thing from the Christian perspective. We are God’s peculiar people (Titus 2:11-15).
No, it’s not.
I’s the words of many men claiming they know what God says. The divinity of Christ wasn’t even decided on the church until the 4th century during council sessions like that of Nicea.
Yes it is.
This is the primary lens which so many who prosthelize are happy to ignore. The words in the Bible are words written by humans over centuries. It is an iterative document which is still being tweaked by people, and to claim that any part of it is the untarnished word of God is to ignore the fact that humans are terribly fallible.
The Bible was written with a Human agenda, and the faith which organized religion fetishizes is more correctly described as faith in the humans who represent their words as of divine origin. It is a faith that the human representation of a divine will is correct, and that those who claim to speak with divine authority have no incentive to misrepresent reality in exchange for positions of power, status, and wealth.
The sheer number of abuses made in the name of divinity, all ascribing to speak with the will of the single divine truth, make it incredibly obvious to anyone not indoctrinated that if 99.9% of religions are bunk by virtue of their own definition (this religion is true and others are not), the chance that 100% are is pretty high, and the chance that any truth which may have been heard is not twisted is so small as to not be worth considering.
Actual ex-Christian here.
The concept that you seem to be failing to grasp – and I can’t blame you because it escaped me as a Christian as well – is that these are rules that you are welcome to follow. Your religion tells you what you can and can’t do. You can make that choice. The problem comes when you try to apply that to anyone else who doesn’t accept it. Your religion’s rules don’t apply to me, because I’m not part of your religion.
I’m willing to coexist with Christians. But that coexistence has to go both ways.
I was raised an atheist and didn’t find Christ until adulthood, so I do grasp that it’s all voluntary. I also recognize that you can’t force anyone to be Christian against their will.
So on those points we agree. Where we differ is that I firmly believe my God is your God, and neither of us could ever change that, no matter how much we may want to. Christ came to save all people, with a focus on those who need it most. So yes, Christianity does apply to you, even though you don’t want it to.
I fully understand your “get off my back” perspective, honestly. Telling someone else how to think or what to do is a remarkably terrible way to make friends. I’m not here to be a jerk. Promise. I know you’re going to do what you’re going to do, irrespective of me. I only want to take every chance I can get to give testimony of my own experiences with God, and to follow the Great Commission for anyone who actually cares to let a seed get planted.
So does that mean we can coexist? I certainly hope so, but I recognize you may think I’m overbearing.
That sounds like a you problem. If your god expects me to believe that it’s real, then it’s going to need to move itself to prove it. Your testimony isn’t sufficient. I’ve already been there, done that and bought the t-shirt.
You’re entitled to think that’s the case. What you think in the privacy of your own head is your business. The moment you think you have the authority (as too many Christians do) to make me follow it is when we have a problem.
And this is why we can’t be friends. We’ve heard the story. We’ve heard the testimony. We remain unmoved. At this point, the only way to describe this behavior is harassment.
The world has heard the message. Let it go and leave us alone.
Christians in Europe have been highly successful at coexisting with non-Christians without harassing them. You might look into their example.
If you were raised Christian, you should know how much God loves human faith. He would never do anything to deprive us of the challenge of faith, because He knows how healthy it is for us to live on faith. Everything He directs us to do is for our own good. Revealing himself would deny us that opportunity. There will be a second coming, but by then it’ll be too late.
You know where to find us when you’re ready. Wishing you all the best.
The reason I’m no longer a Christian is because I committed the unforgivable sin: I put these claims to the test. There was no answer. No fire from on high to consume the altar. No dove descending from the heavens. No whisper on the wind. Just confirmation bias.
Try to survive on faith and you’ll starve quickly. Trying to convince me that your beliefs are true is just going to annoy us both. Mission accomplished.
Trust me, I do know where to find you. Until I go looking for you, leave us alone.
No wonder a bunch of you lot have trouble understanding consent.
Hey i think it would be best if you could keep any proselytising to a Christian Curious specific community. A lot of us have deconstructed but still bear the scars of religious trauma so it can lead to hostile conversations that aren’t productive for either of us. Giving some objective “this is the verse used to justify this action.” and explaining that action without devolving into “My god is your god” is fine.
People are well aware of the ‘why’ behind these types of decisions. There’s a reason Christianity is considered abhorrently sexist by a huge number of people.
I assume you think slavery should be reinstated as well, since the new testament tells slaves to obey their earthly masters?
Hasn’t the Bible been translated from Greek and Hebrew multiple times?
Don;t forget the books the the church in the 1600’s decided shouldn’t be in the bible.
also even Christians can’t agree on what it means–do you know how many fucking schisms Christianity has? (and don’t ask about the one which created the Southern Baptists…)
Yes, and some of them are pretty wacky translations. But the underlying word of God is unchanging.
And didn’t the Catholic Church shuffle around what books were included in the Bible over the years? Like didn’t they take a bunch of books out?
Any religion that deprives certain groups of power simply for existing as a certain thing is maybe worth a reexamination.
Paul was a legit Rabbi. Old habits die hard.
It’s argued that Paul didn’t write Timothy 1. But beyond that, Paul was a false prophet, who took the good work of Jesus and twisted it into his own religion. I often ask Christians who they follow: Jesus or Paul?