Pupils will be banned from wearing abayas, loose-fitting full-length robes worn by some Muslim women, in France’s state-run schools, the education minister has said.

The rule will be applied as soon as the new school year starts on 4 September.

France has a strict ban on religious signs in state schools and government buildings, arguing that they violate secular laws.

Wearing a headscarf has been banned since 2004 in state-run schools.

  • Cornpop@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    169
    arrow-down
    21
    ·
    1 year ago

    I get this completely. This is nothing new for France, they have been blocking Christians from wearing crosses and Jews from wearing kippah’s for a very long time, it’s only reasonable that the Muslim population gets treated equally. Schools should remain completely secular, I am in complete agreement with France there.

    • redcalcium@lemmy.institute
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      65
      arrow-down
      31
      ·
      1 year ago

      Except abayas are basically just some loose-fitting clothes that can be worn by anyone regardless their religion. It’s like banning kimono or sari.

      • Kraivo@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        35
        arrow-down
        19
        ·
        1 year ago

        If it’s just an outfit and not religious clothes than there should be no problem, right?

        • SulaymanF@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          48
          arrow-down
          21
          ·
          1 year ago

          It’s still targeting ethnicities. There’s no denying that these bans have a racial component to it.

          • maynarkh@feddit.nl
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            18
            arrow-down
            9
            ·
            1 year ago

            I’d say it’s cultural rather than racial. Putting one culture above others is not the same as putting one race above others.

            • AngryCommieKender@lemmy.world
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              16
              arrow-down
              12
              ·
              edit-2
              1 year ago

              Especially since one culture refuses to assimilate when they migrate to a new country. Yeah I’m an American, but if I moved to France or Japan I wouldn’t try to change the local culture, I’d try to fit in. If I visited Saudi Arabia, not that they’d let me, my pasty white ass is putting on a turban and some robes so that I don’t die of sun exposure. I’d be the first person in history to get a 4th degree sunburn. I’m not gonna wander around in short pants, and flip flops bare chested the way I could here in SoCal.

                • TheGrandNagus@lemmy.world
                  link
                  fedilink
                  English
                  arrow-up
                  7
                  arrow-down
                  3
                  ·
                  1 year ago

                  Yeah, no.

                  If someone comes to my country I’d expect them to adapt.

                  No homophobic abuse, no sexist abuse, no telling women what they can and can’t do.

                  Cultures aren’t all equal. If your culture is built on bigotry, I have zero respect for it. According to some cultures, I should be stoned to death for being a bisexual man. Fuck those cultures.

                  • TimewornTraveler@lemm.ee
                    link
                    fedilink
                    English
                    arrow-up
                    0
                    arrow-down
                    1
                    ·
                    1 year ago

                    What the heck country are you living in where those aren’t already part of the culture?

                    What makes you think that because it goes on in some parts of a country that it defines all people in that land and from that land?

                    Check your own fucking privilege, or better yet, your bias. You make broad generalizations about people that you literally haven’t ever spoken to.

                  • assassin_aragorn@lemmy.world
                    link
                    fedilink
                    English
                    arrow-up
                    2
                    arrow-down
                    3
                    ·
                    1 year ago

                    If you go to someone’s country which does have anti LGBT laws, are you going to “adapt”?

                    We can stand against bigotry in other could cultures without creating a blanket ban against those cultures.

                • AngryCommieKender@lemmy.world
                  link
                  fedilink
                  English
                  arrow-up
                  8
                  arrow-down
                  5
                  ·
                  1 year ago

                  Yeah. When you decide to join another culture, you don’t force yours on them. If your culture was so shitty that you had to flee to a different country, then maybe it was a shitty culture that shouldn’t be preserved

                  • TimewornTraveler@lemm.ee
                    link
                    fedilink
                    English
                    arrow-up
                    1
                    arrow-down
                    1
                    ·
                    1 year ago

                    The majority of these people aren’t fleeing the culture, they’re fleeing the regimes. Wearing clothing that you wore your whole life isn’t “forcing” it on anyone, you are just being yourself. Would you tolerate a mostly-white school banning dashikis? What if the white principal said “Well the kid wearing it is getting bullied we’re trying to protect him!” Do you see how fucking backwards that is?

                  • kase@lemmy.world
                    link
                    fedilink
                    English
                    arrow-up
                    1
                    arrow-down
                    1
                    ·
                    1 year ago

                    How does the style of clothes you’re wearing force anything on anyone? It’s cool if you want to embrace the new culture, but you wouldn’t be hurting anyone if you didn’t. Besides, it’s not like you have to choose one or the other; assimilating doesn’t have to mean you give up everything pertaining to the culture you lived in before.

                    Side note – shitty culture is far from the only reason for people to move. I’m no expert, but I’m guessing it’s not at the top of the list either, lol.

                • duviobaz@lemmy.world
                  link
                  fedilink
                  English
                  arrow-up
                  2
                  arrow-down
                  1
                  ·
                  1 year ago

                  It’s pretty simple. Give up your culture for another if the other is superior. If your culture is bigoted, for whatever reason, religious or not, give it up.

            • TimewornTraveler@lemm.ee
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              4
              arrow-down
              7
              ·
              edit-2
              1 year ago

              Splitting hairs. It’s still bigotry. Just because it’s bigotry towards something real rather than something we pretend is real doesn’t really change much.

          • Kraivo@lemmy.world
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            11
            arrow-down
            9
            ·
            1 year ago

            It is not. It’s targeting religious signs. If your ethnicity can’t live with the same laws as others than it isn’t not you being ostracized, it’s you being dick by forcing everyone to follow your dogmas.

            • SulaymanF@lemmy.world
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              12
              arrow-down
              6
              ·
              edit-2
              1 year ago

              Not everyone who wears an abaya is religious or Muslim. And France doesn’t target religious signs equally, which is why the 2004 law banned hijab but allowed crosses.

              And if you’re mad that others have to somehow “cater to your dogmas,” someone should tell the French who visit Algeria and other middle eastern countries and demand wine and pork.

              • TheGrandNagus@lemmy.world
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                3
                arrow-down
                2
                ·
                1 year ago

                It allowed crosses and other religious symbols, such as the islamic moon and star so long as they were hidden by clothing

                A hijab isn’t hidden by clothing, it is the clothing.

                • SulaymanF@lemmy.world
                  link
                  fedilink
                  English
                  arrow-up
                  4
                  arrow-down
                  2
                  ·
                  edit-2
                  1 year ago

                  So are turbans. Sikhs fought and died to protect france during world war 2, only for their children to be told they must now hide their religion and conform.

                  This is a badly written law and France is in the wrong here with their unique interpretation of laicite different than every other country’s secularism. As Thomas Jefferson said, other people’s beliefs and expressions “neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.”

                • assassin_aragorn@lemmy.world
                  link
                  fedilink
                  English
                  arrow-up
                  2
                  arrow-down
                  2
                  ·
                  1 year ago

                  So you’re saying the law is completely biased, since the exception fits how Christians commonly display their religion? How convenient.

              • Kraivo@lemmy.world
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                4
                arrow-down
                6
                ·
                1 year ago

                Man, we are in the discussion where literally first post saying that French government preventing people from wearing crosses. What is the point of your argument, if you ignore information given to you by others?

                If a female goes to Saudi Arabia, she is forced to obey the laws of Saudi Arabia and cover parts of the body. If a female goes to France, why is it your problem that people should obey the laws of the France?

                You are insane.

                • SulaymanF@lemmy.world
                  link
                  fedilink
                  English
                  arrow-up
                  8
                  arrow-down
                  3
                  ·
                  1 year ago

                  The first post incorrectly repeated the talking point that crosses are also banned. That’s misleading. They banned “large” crosses and the 2004 law explicitly allowed “small” crosses, but made no similar exceptions for minority religions in France.

                  You can’t have it both ways; either human rights apply worldwide or they don’t. If you believe that both Saudi and France have the right to take away rights for women, you’re the insane one not me.

                  • Kraivo@lemmy.world
                    link
                    fedilink
                    English
                    arrow-up
                    2
                    arrow-down
                    6
                    ·
                    1 year ago

                    Wear small abaya if you want to, dude. I just told ya that people should follow the laws of the country. I didn’t even gave you my opinion on it.

        • WorldWideLem@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          8
          arrow-down
          2
          ·
          1 year ago

          No problem meaning they shouldn’t care about not being able to wear it? Or that the French government shouldn’t care in the first place?

          • Kraivo@lemmy.world
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            5
            arrow-down
            5
            ·
            1 year ago

            If it wasn’t religious sign, French government wouldn’t care about it

      • Chee_Koala@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        38
        arrow-down
        8
        ·
        1 year ago

        Except when you want it, because you like it when you don’t see other people’s genitalia. Then it suddenly is the governments bussiness. In this case it’s even just for during your attendance at a public school.

        • afraid_of_zombies@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          10
          arrow-down
          6
          ·
          1 year ago

          I am okay with everyone walking around nude. If you really want skin cancer and everyone seeing your thunder thighs you should be able to. Me personally I am going to continue to wear clothing.

        • gmtom@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          2
          arrow-down
          4
          ·
          1 year ago

          ah yes, France, the country famous for its prudence in regards to nudists.

        • dragonflyteaparty@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          14
          arrow-down
          18
          ·
          1 year ago

          Public indecency laws are more of a hygiene issue. Making religious clothes or jewelry illegal to wear at school sits very weird with me.

          • PR3CiSiON@lemmy.world
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            5
            arrow-down
            2
            ·
            1 year ago

            I wouldn’t say it is mostly a hiygene issue, though that is a solid perk. It’s because most people get offended at nudity. I personally don’t think they should, and I don’t, but that’s how they feel so…

      • electrogamerman@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        4
        arrow-down
        5
        ·
        1 year ago

        Whoever people sleep or get married with is none of anyone’s business, but Muslims are against homosexuality.

        • TimewornTraveler@lemm.ee
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          5
          arrow-down
          3
          ·
          edit-2
          1 year ago

          Funny, I know Muslims who aren’t against gays but they still wear headscarves. Maybe it’s more complex than the Saudi policy line?

          Also, are you saying authoritarian government is good if they only discriminate against people you don’t like? I guess that’s something an Auth would say…

          • electrogamerman@lemmy.world
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            1
            arrow-down
            5
            ·
            1 year ago

            Authorarian government is good when people are attacking minorities.

            Muslisms dont want to accept homosexuality? Then ban them and make them go back to their countries. You want to stay? Its time to accept homosexuality in their religion. Simple.

            Funny, I know Muslims who aren’t against gays but they still wear headscarves. Maybe it’s more complex than the Saudi policy line?

            Funny, because you never see people with headscarves on the pride parades. There are thousands of them living in western Europe, but somehow they dissappear during pride parade. Funny, isn’t?

            • kase@lemmy.world
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              3
              ·
              1 year ago

              you never see people with headscarves on the pride parades

              What does that even mean? That you yourself have never seen someone wearing a headscarf at pride? Personally, I think it’s a huge leap to take that and say no/very few Muslims in western Europe go to pride.

              It wouldn’t matter even if that was true. Plenty of people support the LGBTQ+ community and don’t go to pride, same goes for many people who are part of the community.

            • TimewornTraveler@lemm.ee
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              1
              ·
              1 year ago

              Isn’t it curious how this argument is never applied to bigotry broadly. People always seem to be so on-board with banning Muslims from France for this reason or that, and always retreat into criticizing their beliefs, as if that were some consistent policy. But some hick in West Virginia doens’t accept gays? Why not call for banishing him from America?

              Oh they are immigrants? Funny because plenty of muslims are born in France/America and have lived there their entire lives. And even the ones who haven’t - it’s called a fucking refugee. A good nation is one that takes someone in who is hurting, regardless of who they are and what they believe, and do their best to provide an environment that protects everyone and gives them a chance to learn accepting beliefs.

              Notice how none of this shit has anything to do with headscarves btw… almost like there’s another agenda here…

              • electrogamerman@lemmy.world
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                1
                ·
                1 year ago

                It is tho. We need to erradicate homophobia from everywhere. You have to understand the background tho.

                Yeah, all religion are against homosexuality, but christianity and catolicisism is at least trying to integrate homosexuality into the religion. There are gay fathers, churches have the rainbow flag, the pope (the head of the religion) just last week advocated for same sex couples. Is it perfect? No it is not, but at least there are some people in the religion trying.

                What about muslim? No, they are not trying. Countries where muslism is the main religion have death penalty or life sentences for homosexuals. And the problem is that is not the main problem of the religion, for them to be able to accept homosexuality, they would first need to realize that they are misogynistics, and that is not happening any time soon.

                It is the same thing white people vs mideast people. Are all white people queer friendly? Not they are not, but there are a lot more that support homosexuality. Are all mideast people homophobic? Not they are not, but I am probable to be beaten up by a mideast guy than by a white guy (in Europe).

                Notice how none of this shit has anything to do with headscarves btw… almost like there’s another agenda here…

                I agree it hasnt, but if mideast/muslim people keep being homophobic, then I am glad that the government is taking measurements to ban mideast/muslim cultural things like headscarves.

                They want respect and inclusion? Then respect and be inclusive of others. It is this simple.

            • gmtom@lemmy.world
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              6
              arrow-down
              2
              ·
              1 year ago

              Definitely a better argument than “some Muslims don’t like gays, so we should stop French schoolgirls from wearing a specific kind of dress, that’ll teach 'em”

              Well done mate, you and Macron have solved homophobia.

              • electrogamerman@lemmy.world
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                3
                arrow-down
                3
                ·
                edit-2
                1 year ago

                Some muslisms is a BIG under statement.

                If you were afraid of going to the street and hold hands or kiss with a partner because you could be beaten or killed, you would understand, so yeah, im glad France took this decision.

                • gmtom@lemmy.world
                  link
                  fedilink
                  English
                  arrow-up
                  4
                  arrow-down
                  1
                  ·
                  1 year ago
                  1. I’m gay and live in a heavily Muslim area, so stfu

                  2. Stopping french school girls from wearing a specific dress does… what? To stop Muslim homophobia exactly?

                  3. Christians also are anti gays, should we ban graphic tees as some sad, ineffectual petty revenge on them for homophobia?

                  4. Okay edgelord

    • bouh@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      3
      arrow-down
      11
      ·
      1 year ago

      They banned crosses for Christians because they ban Muslim headwear. They had to do something for Christian or it would have been the most obvious racism.

      • Cornpop@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        3
        arrow-down
        1
        ·
        1 year ago

        Read the article. Crosses have been banned for a long time, before the Muslim headwear.

        • assassin_aragorn@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          2
          arrow-down
          2
          ·
          1 year ago

          There’s an exception for the most common kind of religious expression for Christians. Small crosses are permitted. If you want to be fair, you need to ban them too.

      • Cornpop@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        1
        arrow-down
        1
        ·
        1 year ago

        Read the article. Crosses have been banned for a long time, before the Muslim headwear.