The history of monetization and mods is a pretty complex one.
Back in the UT/Quake 3 era, it was not at all uncommon to pay someone to make a skin or model for you. Those would be put online “for free”, but the Influencers of the era (clan folk and prolific forum posters) would get the warm and fuzzies from knowing there was a 420_JustBlazeIt_696969 skin for the nali warcow.
The first time I can really think of there being actual premium content you had to pay for was Neverwinter Nights and, to a lesser extent, The Sims. Yeah, there were the titties and fucking mods and the better ones were behind paywalls. But NWN in particular had a few cases where prolific modders might want some cash to give you access to their really cool campaigns. And Atari/Bioware took advantage of that for premium mods (although, I don’t think any community mods ever got an official release? I know AL3 or AL4 was supposed to be but ended up getting released for free when the program ended).
But that was arguably the beginning of the end for the golden age of mods. Because a year or two later we had Unreal Tournament 2003/4 and the “Make Something Unreal” contest. Which was a competition held by epic where the best mods in different categories would get huge cash prizes and games like Red Orchestra actually came out of this. And… it almost instantly killed the modding community. Sure we got Chaos UT2k4 and a few others, but basically every large modding effort was part of this contest rather than “for fun”.
And… the reality is that the contest and atari’s half ass efforts were pointless. Because the reality is that, by the early 2000s, modding was of comparable difficulty to making a game from scratch. And tools kept getting better (UT became The Unreal Engine, if that is not obvious) and between UE and Unity it was a lot easier for people to just make their dream games and sell them rather than make a mod for someone else’s game.
The Bethesda games side was a lot more gradual. There wasn’t a massive exodus of modders but… the number of quality quest mods for Morrowind versus Oblivion and Skyrim very much shows that the particularly talented folk were off doing other stuff. And a lot of the old hats realize this. A mod list for Morrowind might have been hundreds of quests. A mod list for Skyrim is bugfixes, a few UI/UX fixes, a graphics mod or two, and… that is it. Like, you still get the occasional magnum opus. But… yeah.
So you get this push back over the idea of modding “dying” even more. Because people aren’t going to put in hundreds of hours of work to give something away when they can do the same work and get paid for it. But… that also means they aren’t putting in 10 hours of work to make a hilariously bad map that simulates what it is like to have Comcast internet.
And then you just have the children who throw a temper tantrum the moment they are deprived of something they want.
Wtf are you talking about, Skyrim has dozens of amazing quest mods, and hundreds of quest mods overall.
It has major gameplay overhauls, it has custom skeletons for animation, it literally has mods that rework the animation system entirely. Modders added a survival system almost a full decade before Bethesda did.
There are mods that add new continents ffs, what’re you talking about? One of the quest mods was so good it literally got turned into its own game.
Edit: There are currently 60k mods for Skyrim Special Edition, and about 70k for the original Skyrim. Meanwhile Morrowind has 11k. Wtf are you talking about??
they are likely referring to The Forgotten City. Which is more than a bit more complicated than “one of the quest mods was so good it literally got turned into its own game” but is close enough to not matter. I enjoyed it but it also felt very reminiscent of the MSU mods that became full games (Helldorado? The shitty steampunk third person shooter with demons). Just with the added benefit of being artistic and a critical darling. If people weren’t huge on Outer Worlds for not feeling enough like Skyrim, they aren’t going to be a fan of The Forgotten City.
A friend referred to it as “an arthouse game” and… she isn’t wrong. The people who like it are going to LOVE it. And everyone else is going to say they like it so that people don’t judge them for not being a fan.
it is also a case of traditional modding dying out in favor of people just making their own games. But that person seemed confused and angry as is because I didn’t consult them before making a generalization so let’s cut them some slack.
The Forgotten City has “overwhelmingly positive” reviews on Steam with many people praising it for its Bethesda-like systems, so I’m not sure what you mean. Maybe you felt it wasn’t enough like Skyrim and disliked it for that, but clearly you don’t speak for others.
Also, no other Skyrim quest mod, out of the near 2 thousand quest mods for the game, had a full game built off of them. So while that does happen sometimes (ie Dayz), it’s exceedingly rare and far from some sort of “tradition” as you put it. If anything that was far more common a decade or two ago than it is now. The original Star Wars Battlefront mod was quite a long time ago after all.
And no I’m not mad, I’m just confused as to how you could think Skyrim has only bug fixes, UI, and graphics mods, when in reality it has nearly 7x the amount of mods that Morrowind has and is the primary example of a thriving modding scene. Idk if you just spouted that out without knowing, or what.
Eh, that was close enough to a response rather than a frothing rant that I’ll respond.
Plenty of niche games have “overwhelmingly positive” reviews on Steam. Because that is a function of the reviews by those who played it and cared enough to leave a response. Its one of the great things about Steam reviews. I don’t have to adjust a metacritic score because space dogfighting games always score 10-20 points lower than Call of Duty because I know the vast majority of people leaving feedback loved Freespace and are vaguely aware Tachyon existed.
But as far as the wider world? It was almost immediately forgotten. It got a lot of great reviews, but not a lot of play. Which is more or less the case for any arthouse movie. I know it can be hard to keep reading after you see something that MAKES YOU SO ANGRY but you should try. People have a tendency to elaborate on points.
As for Skyrim having “7x the amount of mods that Morrowind has”. First, that ignores how many quests and mods were lost to time. I genuinely can’t remember where we went for Morrowind mods (I want to say a mix of the official forums and back when UESP still had forums? It has literally been decades). But just looking at Nexus is only part of the picture. Hell, I think Nexus came out of Morrowind modding? Or did it only get big with Oblivion?
But also? of course it has more mods. The same way that basically every new game in a franchise SHOULD sell more than the previous one did. The audience for gaming has exploded over the decades.
The website makes me vomit, the citations are weak, and the visualization is just bad. But https://www.visualcapitalist.com/50-years-gaming-history-revenue-stream/ gets the point across and looks roughly correct from figures I have seen given in interviews and the like. And the actual specific numbers matter a lot less (and weren’t even recorded in any way that is reliable).
As of 2020-ish, we are looking at approximately 73B according to “Visual Capitalist” (ugh). So if we assume roughly the same market share were playing TES games in both eras (and it is pretty safe to say that Skyrim is a MUCH more mainstream game than Morrowind was…), we would expect at least a 3.5x increase in the amount of mods. Oh, I am also assuming the same percentage of the userbase were interested in hobbyist game dev (ha) and that the tools have not gotten easier to use (TESEdit or whatever it was called was pure hell back in the day).
So… if we assume all else has remained equal (and ignore all my somewhat mocking points about how they clearly haven’t)… Oh, I forgot. Since TES games are basically the only ones with a thriving modding community these days (unless you count roblox and minecraft where monetization is even more standard), let’s also not assume that anyone who would have made an NWN mod or a UT mod or a Half-life mod decided to not make any Skyrim mods.
Oh, and revenue is also a horrible metric due to a combination of inflation and increased cost of game development, but it gives a rough idea of the audience size.
Uhm… where was I? Look, I can’t even keep a straight face on this. 7x is really not the win you are thinking it is. It should be a LOT higher than that if Skyrim modding really is thriving to the degree things were in the golden age of modding (late 90s, early 00s).
And that isn’t a bad thing. Like I said in the first post that set you off: This is just the trend we have seen. When it is literally easier to make a game in Unreal Engine than it is to make a quest mod in Skyrim… what are you going to do? This is why Unreal Tournament 3 flopped so hard. The expectation was that Epic would release a game and modders would run wild with it. Instead, modders were making UE3 games and getting paid. And the same happened with a few other games (arguably Half-Life 2). Neverwinter Nights 2, and CRPGs in general, largely died out for similar reason. People were less interested in paying for a 20 hour campaign that was “okay” if they weren’t going to have really cool user generated content waiting for them afterward.
And… I’ve already pissed off enough people so I won’t say anything beyond: How did Dreams do?
This is pretty long response lol so I’ll tackle each point individually.
Plenty of niche games have “overwhelmingly positive” reviews on…
Your whole argument on niche games getting good reviews, I actually fully agree with. The problem is that those reviews are literally the only metric we have to discern whether or not the people that played it enjoyed it - anything else is pure speculation. Including your point about people not liking it if they felt it didn’t feel enough like Skyrim, or people saying they like it just to appease others. It’s frankly bizarre that you’d make an argument for Steam Reviews not 100% showing the accuracy of people’s opinions, while simultaneously making statements like those with zero anything to back them up.
At the very least the reviews tell us that people who played it say they liked it. That’s just a fact. And considering that that’s all we have, I think it’s fair to use it. Anything else, again, is just pure speculation.
I know it can be hard to keep reading after you see something that MAKES YOU SO ANGRY but you should try.
This was weird lol.
“7x the amount of mods that Morrowind has”. First, that ignores how many quests and mods were lost to time.
No, it doesn’t. Skyrim has over 70k mods while Morrowind has roughly 11k. Even if there were over one hundred missing quest mods for Morrowind, which I doubt, it still wouldn’t affect that massive difference.
But also? of course it has more mods. The same way that basically every new game in a franchise SHOULD sell more than the previous one did. The audience for gaming has exploded over the decades.
This… just isn’t how modding works. Most new games releasing will have some reshades and a trainer, max. Once in a great while you’ll get some nudity. The size of the audience doesn’t change that - most games releasing simply don’t garner much mod support.
By your logic a game like Call of Duty should have a massive modding scene, as the new entry will be newer and have a massive audience, an audience multiple times bigger than any Bethesda game. But no, that’s just not how that works. Hell, even a game like The Witcher 3 only has half the number of mods that Morrowind does.
Also I’m confused as to the point of those links. Are you arguing that gaming has… gotten more popular over the years? Yeah no shit. As I said earlier, numbers going up doesn’t magically guarantee a thriving modding scene.
So if we assume roughly the same market share were playing TES games in both eras (and it is pretty safe to say that Skyrim is a MUCH more mainstream game than Morrowind was…), we would expect at least a 3.5x increase in the amount of mods.
As I went over before, no. Lol absolutely not. I don’t believe that you actually think this could possibly be true. Lets apply your logic to other mainstream games releasing nowadays and see if that logic holds water (hint, it doesn’t).
The history of monetization and mods is a pretty complex one.
Back in the UT/Quake 3 era, it was not at all uncommon to pay someone to make a skin or model for you. Those would be put online “for free”, but the Influencers of the era (clan folk and prolific forum posters) would get the warm and fuzzies from knowing there was a 420_JustBlazeIt_696969 skin for the nali warcow.
The first time I can really think of there being actual premium content you had to pay for was Neverwinter Nights and, to a lesser extent, The Sims. Yeah, there were the titties and fucking mods and the better ones were behind paywalls. But NWN in particular had a few cases where prolific modders might want some cash to give you access to their really cool campaigns. And Atari/Bioware took advantage of that for premium mods (although, I don’t think any community mods ever got an official release? I know AL3 or AL4 was supposed to be but ended up getting released for free when the program ended).
But that was arguably the beginning of the end for the golden age of mods. Because a year or two later we had Unreal Tournament 2003/4 and the “Make Something Unreal” contest. Which was a competition held by epic where the best mods in different categories would get huge cash prizes and games like Red Orchestra actually came out of this. And… it almost instantly killed the modding community. Sure we got Chaos UT2k4 and a few others, but basically every large modding effort was part of this contest rather than “for fun”.
And… the reality is that the contest and atari’s half ass efforts were pointless. Because the reality is that, by the early 2000s, modding was of comparable difficulty to making a game from scratch. And tools kept getting better (UT became The Unreal Engine, if that is not obvious) and between UE and Unity it was a lot easier for people to just make their dream games and sell them rather than make a mod for someone else’s game.
The Bethesda games side was a lot more gradual. There wasn’t a massive exodus of modders but… the number of quality quest mods for Morrowind versus Oblivion and Skyrim very much shows that the particularly talented folk were off doing other stuff. And a lot of the old hats realize this. A mod list for Morrowind might have been hundreds of quests. A mod list for Skyrim is bugfixes, a few UI/UX fixes, a graphics mod or two, and… that is it. Like, you still get the occasional magnum opus. But… yeah.
So you get this push back over the idea of modding “dying” even more. Because people aren’t going to put in hundreds of hours of work to give something away when they can do the same work and get paid for it. But… that also means they aren’t putting in 10 hours of work to make a hilariously bad map that simulates what it is like to have Comcast internet.
And then you just have the children who throw a temper tantrum the moment they are deprived of something they want.
You’re fucking with us, right? RIGHT?? 😂
Wtf are you talking about, Skyrim has dozens of amazing quest mods, and hundreds of quest mods overall.
It has major gameplay overhauls, it has custom skeletons for animation, it literally has mods that rework the animation system entirely. Modders added a survival system almost a full decade before Bethesda did.
There are mods that add new continents ffs, what’re you talking about? One of the quest mods was so good it literally got turned into its own game.
Edit: There are currently 60k mods for Skyrim Special Edition, and about 70k for the original Skyrim. Meanwhile Morrowind has 11k. Wtf are you talking about??
I didn’t hear about the quest mod getting its own game, what’s it called?
The Forgotten City
they are likely referring to The Forgotten City. Which is more than a bit more complicated than “one of the quest mods was so good it literally got turned into its own game” but is close enough to not matter. I enjoyed it but it also felt very reminiscent of the MSU mods that became full games (Helldorado? The shitty steampunk third person shooter with demons). Just with the added benefit of being artistic and a critical darling. If people weren’t huge on Outer Worlds for not feeling enough like Skyrim, they aren’t going to be a fan of The Forgotten City.
A friend referred to it as “an arthouse game” and… she isn’t wrong. The people who like it are going to LOVE it. And everyone else is going to say they like it so that people don’t judge them for not being a fan.
it is also a case of traditional modding dying out in favor of people just making their own games. But that person seemed confused and angry as is because I didn’t consult them before making a generalization so let’s cut them some slack.
The Forgotten City has “overwhelmingly positive” reviews on Steam with many people praising it for its Bethesda-like systems, so I’m not sure what you mean. Maybe you felt it wasn’t enough like Skyrim and disliked it for that, but clearly you don’t speak for others.
Also, no other Skyrim quest mod, out of the near 2 thousand quest mods for the game, had a full game built off of them. So while that does happen sometimes (ie Dayz), it’s exceedingly rare and far from some sort of “tradition” as you put it. If anything that was far more common a decade or two ago than it is now. The original Star Wars Battlefront mod was quite a long time ago after all.
And no I’m not mad, I’m just confused as to how you could think Skyrim has only bug fixes, UI, and graphics mods, when in reality it has nearly 7x the amount of mods that Morrowind has and is the primary example of a thriving modding scene. Idk if you just spouted that out without knowing, or what.
Eh, that was close enough to a response rather than a frothing rant that I’ll respond.
Plenty of niche games have “overwhelmingly positive” reviews on Steam. Because that is a function of the reviews by those who played it and cared enough to leave a response. Its one of the great things about Steam reviews. I don’t have to adjust a metacritic score because space dogfighting games always score 10-20 points lower than Call of Duty because I know the vast majority of people leaving feedback loved Freespace and are vaguely aware Tachyon existed.
But as far as the wider world? It was almost immediately forgotten. It got a lot of great reviews, but not a lot of play. Which is more or less the case for any arthouse movie. I know it can be hard to keep reading after you see something that MAKES YOU SO ANGRY but you should try. People have a tendency to elaborate on points.
As for Skyrim having “7x the amount of mods that Morrowind has”. First, that ignores how many quests and mods were lost to time. I genuinely can’t remember where we went for Morrowind mods (I want to say a mix of the official forums and back when UESP still had forums? It has literally been decades). But just looking at Nexus is only part of the picture. Hell, I think Nexus came out of Morrowind modding? Or did it only get big with Oblivion?
But also? of course it has more mods. The same way that basically every new game in a franchise SHOULD sell more than the previous one did. The audience for gaming has exploded over the decades.
The website makes me vomit, the citations are weak, and the visualization is just bad. But https://www.visualcapitalist.com/50-years-gaming-history-revenue-stream/ gets the point across and looks roughly correct from figures I have seen given in interviews and the like. And the actual specific numbers matter a lot less (and weren’t even recorded in any way that is reliable).
Going off https://www.visualcapitalist.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/history-of-gaming-by-revenue-share-full-size.html so I can see it (and I am specifically citing the URL because I would not be shocked if it was actually different than in the article…), in the year 200 where was approximately 20 billion in PC revenue. And while Morrowind DID have an xbox version… it really didn’t.
As of 2020-ish, we are looking at approximately 73B according to “Visual Capitalist” (ugh). So if we assume roughly the same market share were playing TES games in both eras (and it is pretty safe to say that Skyrim is a MUCH more mainstream game than Morrowind was…), we would expect at least a 3.5x increase in the amount of mods. Oh, I am also assuming the same percentage of the userbase were interested in hobbyist game dev (ha) and that the tools have not gotten easier to use (TESEdit or whatever it was called was pure hell back in the day).
So… if we assume all else has remained equal (and ignore all my somewhat mocking points about how they clearly haven’t)… Oh, I forgot. Since TES games are basically the only ones with a thriving modding community these days (unless you count roblox and minecraft where monetization is even more standard), let’s also not assume that anyone who would have made an NWN mod or a UT mod or a Half-life mod decided to not make any Skyrim mods.
Oh, and revenue is also a horrible metric due to a combination of inflation and increased cost of game development, but it gives a rough idea of the audience size.
Uhm… where was I? Look, I can’t even keep a straight face on this. 7x is really not the win you are thinking it is. It should be a LOT higher than that if Skyrim modding really is thriving to the degree things were in the golden age of modding (late 90s, early 00s).
And that isn’t a bad thing. Like I said in the first post that set you off: This is just the trend we have seen. When it is literally easier to make a game in Unreal Engine than it is to make a quest mod in Skyrim… what are you going to do? This is why Unreal Tournament 3 flopped so hard. The expectation was that Epic would release a game and modders would run wild with it. Instead, modders were making UE3 games and getting paid. And the same happened with a few other games (arguably Half-Life 2). Neverwinter Nights 2, and CRPGs in general, largely died out for similar reason. People were less interested in paying for a 20 hour campaign that was “okay” if they weren’t going to have really cool user generated content waiting for them afterward.
And… I’ve already pissed off enough people so I won’t say anything beyond: How did Dreams do?
This is pretty long response lol so I’ll tackle each point individually.
Your whole argument on niche games getting good reviews, I actually fully agree with. The problem is that those reviews are literally the only metric we have to discern whether or not the people that played it enjoyed it - anything else is pure speculation. Including your point about people not liking it if they felt it didn’t feel enough like Skyrim, or people saying they like it just to appease others. It’s frankly bizarre that you’d make an argument for Steam Reviews not 100% showing the accuracy of people’s opinions, while simultaneously making statements like those with zero anything to back them up.
At the very least the reviews tell us that people who played it say they liked it. That’s just a fact. And considering that that’s all we have, I think it’s fair to use it. Anything else, again, is just pure speculation.
This was weird lol.
No, it doesn’t. Skyrim has over 70k mods while Morrowind has roughly 11k. Even if there were over one hundred missing quest mods for Morrowind, which I doubt, it still wouldn’t affect that massive difference.
This… just isn’t how modding works. Most new games releasing will have some reshades and a trainer, max. Once in a great while you’ll get some nudity. The size of the audience doesn’t change that - most games releasing simply don’t garner much mod support.
By your logic a game like Call of Duty should have a massive modding scene, as the new entry will be newer and have a massive audience, an audience multiple times bigger than any Bethesda game. But no, that’s just not how that works. Hell, even a game like The Witcher 3 only has half the number of mods that Morrowind does.
Also I’m confused as to the point of those links. Are you arguing that gaming has… gotten more popular over the years? Yeah no shit. As I said earlier, numbers going up doesn’t magically guarantee a thriving modding scene.
As I went over before, no. Lol absolutely not. I don’t believe that you actually think this could possibly be true. Lets apply your logic to other mainstream games releasing nowadays and see if that logic holds water (hint, it doesn’t).
This comment was truly a trip, thank you.