I’m starting to think Israel aren’t the good guys…
They are the evil they claim to be fighting
Israel is a terrorist state.
Regardless of what your opinions on Palestine might be, Israel really isn’t beating the allegations right now.
I remember what I learned in school about this, it was described as a territory dispute between two equal belligerents. Maybe that was true 30 years ago, I don’t know, but it really doesn’t describe what’s going on right now.
The war is over. Israel won, Palestine barely even exists anymore. This is the part where you’re supposed to facilitate aid and win over the losers to your side. dafuq flavor of genocide you dune Israel?
of course, nobody who needs to read this will ever see it. I’m just upset that this kind of thing can even happen in current year.
Of course the second, I’m looking at current events like it’s still 2015. not sure why I’m doing that, but fuck does current events make me miss 2015.
Israel is evil
Wow, Israel really is the only democracy in the Middle East!
Israel to Nazis: When I left you I was but the learner now I am the master.
For those of you doubting the claims for lack of evidence, stating that you’ll “wait for the facts” or evidence before allowing yourslf to be outraged—
Where is your outrage for the countless other people who were there who personally testified to being beaten, abused, and paraded around like trophies?
There are already multiple interviews with Chris Smalls, a black American labor organizer, who directly confirmed that he had been beaten, choked, packed like a sardine into a small cell, sleep deprived, strip searched, and completely brutalized by the Israeli navy and prison system.
Ask yourself—why does this need to have happened to the appropriately aged, white, European female on a 4k, live streamed or recorded feed with corroborating testimony by the Israelis and the national newspapers of the country of origin of the supposed victim—why is that the bar you’ve set for credulity?
What does that say about you or your reaction to the situation?
Wake. Up.
Fuck the details, fuck the squabbling over what constitutes “roughness” versus physical assault. Fuck the inclination to want to hear “the other side” of the story. Things are going horribly wrong in Israel/Palestine—in a place that we’ve all been told over and over is supposed to be demonstrably above reproach. If even half these claims are true—if even a single one of them is true—what GOOD is it preserving the supposed beacon of democracy in the middle east when they treat foreigners this way?
Even if you think these activists are mentally unwell, or menaces, or being performative, or just doing this for “selfies”—so what? We all know these activists are obviously not terrorists and at least some of them genuinely believe what they are doing. None of this justifies their treatment. Nothing justifies the richest and proudest countries on earth—however much you might agree with that claim—what GOOD is that if our prisons condemn people to absolute squalor and abandonment to the whims of their guards?
HOW is this any different from the indignity camps? These peoples possessions were seized as trophies , their clothes taken, their bodies crammed together like chattel. Do there need to be ovens for there to be discernable lines? Must you feel the radiant heat on your own brows before you’ll indulge the sensation that something isn’t right here?
Wake. Up.
Waiting for the facts is a pretty sensible move in most situations.
Israel is a rogue terrorist state.
The most expected outcome of the expedition.
Exactly the kind of thing Israel would do. Very consistent and predictable of them.
Fuck israehell ! Free Palestine 🕊
Israel has apparently said this in response to the situation:
I don’t see how that’s consistent with them murdering civilians in Gaza.
Because they don’t see civilians in Gaza as people.
They literally call Palestinians (not Hamas, Palestinians) “human animals” and “vermin”, just like the NAZIs used to literally say that Jews and Roma were “subhuman” and “vermin”.
Let’s be honest, they don’t really see non Jews as people either. Zionist ideology is based on Jewish supremacy. They see Christian evangelical Americans as useful idiots. Everyone else is beneath them.
Religion is an excuse for violence. Prove me wrong.
Ironically, Zionism is an ideology founded by atheist Jews
Religion is just another excuse for violence.
The NAZIs put the Roma People in the same category as Jews - so, to be exterminated as an ethnicity (“curiously” there are no Oscar Winning films about the plight of the Roma People, nor has Germany tried to make amends with them) - and yet they tend to be Christians, same as the NAZIs.
Ethno-Fascists regimes are dominated by Psychopaths and Sociopaths, and these people don’t care about Religion beyond it’s immense utility as a tool to manipulate other people.
There is an Oscar winning film that depicts (in part) the Romani inclusion in the Holocaust: Son of Saul (2015).. The lead actor is Romanian (which, I know is not the same) who plays a Jewish main character, but the film itself directly contains scenes of the Sinti and Roma inclusion in the camps.
There are also several other good films that depict the Romani aspect of the Holocaust—even one whose name quite literally the same point you (correctly) made: A People Uncounted (2011).
Some others:
- And the Violins Stopped Playing (1988)
- Korkoro (2009)
Thank you for that information: I wasn’t aware of those.
It’s a small list (considering its for the whole World) compared to the list of films about the plight of Jews during the Holocaust, and of course not a single one of them seems to have come out of Hollywood, but still, it’s better than nothing.
Everything else is just busywork, but It’s always been about control and violence.
Maybe religions are an excuse for trying to achieve certain political goals. E.g. a Christian in the USA might say “we have to ban abortion because God says abortion is wrong”. And a settler Jew in Israel might say “we have to occupy the West Bank because God says that land belongs to Jews”. And a conservative Muslim might say “women should not be allowed to drive because God says so”.
Always has been.
While I wouldn’t wish this on anyone, it’s amazing how self-destructive this is. Greta is an internationally famous activist. Flagrantly violating and abusing a person with world renown - along with dozens of other activists - is a radically stupid way to hasten international isolation.
It is well known by most in Israel that the country simply cannot function in isolation. It will lead to collapse. In this, they are giving the flotilla far more power to eventually overthrow the ruling regime.
They just assume Uncle Sam will bail them out, no matter what. They are not wrong, much to the frustration of a large portion of the US population.
The Americans are not the reliable partner they used to be.
Reliable enough, unfortunately.
I actually don’t think that’s true. One of the rare bright spots in Trump’s generally unbroken record of catastrophe is that he is so unpredictable, and generally gives so little of a shit what happens to anyone outside himself, that the chances of Israel suffering some kind of great consequence and the US not bailing them out as we always do are greatly increased right now I think.
Also, yes, I think this is possibly the greatest fuckup Israel could possibly have committed right now. It may be what finally turns the tide against them, after so many decades of nothing. Outside of literally nuking Gaza or Iran or something, I honestly can’t think of anything worse for them than physically brutalizing a universally popular Western media personality for literally no reason at all.
Problem is, she’s not popular with the type of people who vote for Trump. His demographic would take Israel’s side on this one.
I wasn’t really thinking of them as part of “the Western world” tbh. I do understand that there’s a loud contingent for whom she’s just a stupid loudmouth FEMALE, maybe that is a fly in the ointment of my argument. I do think it’ll still have a pretty significant impact.
TBF, if most of the Western world was not either tacitly or loudly supporting imperialism and having violence as virtue we wouldn’t be in such a mess. Israel is a Franco-British creation nurtured by the USA, their first-born…
There’s no assumption: it’s a known fact.
Thats on borrowed time. Money to isreal is one of the only issues left and right agree with. Someone is going to take advantage of that eventually and isrela is gonna get disconnected from the US teet
The
leftDemocrats and the right.Politics are left, right, and whatever the fuck Democrats are doing.
The
leftDemocrats and the rest of the right.
I know you are probably American, so am I.
We need to stop calling the Democrats the “left” party. They’re not.
Isn’t it relative though? They’re left of the Republicans so they are the left most choice Americans have.
No because left means anti-capitalist. The Democratic Party is not anti-capitalist. Therefore, the Democratic Party is not a left party.
However, they are a neoliberal party. Which, when compared to the Republican Party’s existence as a fascist party, does certainly make the Democrats preferable. But just because they are preferable does not mean they are left
Uncle Sam has Congestive Heart Failure. Their position is tenuous to be generous.
If only it were that simple. The US still has an insanely powerful military. Historically a nation in decline, with an unpredictable leader, and a strong military is not very good for the world
Rapidly shrinking and disabling that military. None of it matters though. We picked a doomsday, AI weapons.
They have done worse to other protestors and faced zero accountability:
They’ve deliberately attacked the American Navy before and nothing came of it.
For those who don’t know: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Liberty_incident
I don’t know if it was ever shown to be deliberate, but they sure didn’t exercise due care in identifying their targets.
And tried to assassinate a US Ambassador:
Insane. If this were any other country we’d glass the entire continent, but for a bunch of worthless nazis? We bend over backwards to help them even more. Infuriating.
Yeah, why would any major players care? Did they ever care for activists?
There are reports from American doctors who worked in Gaza of Palestinian babies being regularly shot in the head.
That was reported during the Biden administration.
Israel is murdering babies, and it hasn’t affected their support. Why would this matter?
Palestinian babies
Plenty of people in The WestR don’t consider them worthy of empathy, but a white woman of small stature who first became famous as a child might be a different story. We need a mass worldwide cultural shift to identifying all humans as part of the in group or we aren’t going to make it through this century.
I should clarify what I mean a bit.
I’m not saying that brutalizing Greta Thunberg is the straw that is going to break the camel’s back. I’m saying that it’s an escalation of a pattern of behavior that I think is very likely leading toward a collapse of the zionist project at some point in the next decade.
The testimony of those doctors is absolutely part of the same pattern of behavior. And while a lot of folks have looked at the continuing genocide and concluded that clearly, nothing has mattered and nothing will, I believe it has, and it will.
It’s hard to describe succinctly, but Israel today is far, far, FAR weaker than Israel 5 years ago. There is an inertia that lets them feign invincibility, but the country is truly in times without precedent. The longest war since its establishment was 118 days in '82. So much of the assumptions on which Israel relies – constant readiness, bipartisan US support, the total support of Europe, constant Jewish immigration, a strong labor force, a booming tourism industry – is in shambles. Internal divisions are rending their society apart. Their economy, international influence, and social institutions are in crisis.
In this context, this continued loss of an ability or willingness to be discrete in their atrocities really does bolster my conviction that in the next five years the country is going to collapse.
Unlike many, I don’t say this lightly or with glee. I just say it because it’s what I foresee.
While I wouldn’t wish this on anyone, it’s amazing how self-destructive this is. Greta is an internationally famous activist. Flagrantly violating and abusing a person with world renown - along with dozens of other activists - is a radically stupid way to hasten international isolation.
You’d be correct most of the time, but this is Israel we are talking about. They know there won’t be any consequences because claiming they did something wrong must mean you’re a nazi, and even if you get over that, daddy USA is there to protect them anyway.
Israel could livestream a soldier killing Greta and they would face no consequences whatsoever.
They’ve gone so far over every red line that it literally doesn’t matter anymore at this point. They’re literally destroying an entire population - genocide - in full view of the world. What is some maltreatment of an activist in the face of all that? If indiscriminately bombing preschools and blowing up children with drones doesn’t manage to do it, what will?
Remember when Elon Musk did a nazi salute on the world stage for all to see? Remember how we were trying to rationalize what the hell he was thinking? The simplest answer is that nazis at some point just can’t help themselves and they end up saluting because they love doing it, they just need to show people who they are.
Same logic I think applies here. Yes it is self-defeating, yes, it is stupid, and yes, it is gratuitous and dangerous. But these people working Ben Gvir’s prisons? This is who they are. It’s horrifically simple. The people working the Israeli prison system are low level functionaries of apartheid. These are not people who think in terms of strategy etc. If they had the capacity to think like that they wouldn’t be there. It’s as simple as that.
/Edit: typos
With some of the politicians in power these days, it will be pushed as finally putting an end to her climate lies or some other bullshit culture war topic.
I don’t think any law or any order is actually a thing anymore.
If trying to exterminate a whole population did not do anything, I doubt abusing Thunberg will change things
Genuienly, how is it self destructive?
Is this the red line that’s going to result in…
… anything negative happening to Israel?
Probably not, no.
What, is somebody go to war with Israel and the US over Greta, not hundreds of thousands being starved shot blown up and lit on fire?
I answered this in reply to another comment at greater length, but I’m describing this as a pattern of behavior that I think has already set Israel on a course for collapse in several years.
fair enough, I’m just pissed and being a bit catty.
=[
It is intentional. They want to flaunt their power. Look at what we can do and nobody will stop us.
It’s not. Nothing will change, the west will keep supporting israel while pretending not to
Supremacists gonna supremacist.
There’s also a considerable portion of the world who hates Greta and is probably cheering them on. The first news story I saw pop up about Greta being kidnapped said Israel was doing the world a favour…
There are also many like us who don’t know who she is.
You make a good point. I think sadly it will not rise to the point of actual effect. It will inflame people who support her, and those folks are likely already inflamed over Gaza. Many others don’t give a shit about her or actively hate her, and they will either gloss over this or say “that’s what you get” or even “good.”
My own mother, who is a feminist and wildlife advocate, loves to repost FB memes about her being an unrealistic virtue signalling twat who perfoms a low-carbon image while still not living up to the humble standards of the elbow-grease-powered older generations. It’s sad. Greta is incredibly polarizing, and some people just hate her for being young and idealistic.
On the whole I don’t see this affecting anything. We live in an era of mutually exclusive mental models of reality and they can be incredibly well insulated.
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We also have no evidence any of this happened. It is easy to make propaganda when we want to believe it.
The beating and flag kissing is sourced to another captive, and might be exaggerated, but her general mistreatment was reported by Swedish diplomats after speaking to her. It’s pretty credible, imo.
Do we have any sources that aren’t biased toward making her treatment look bad?
Respectfully:
Are you genuinely interested in exercising neutral skepticism? Or are you just arguing on the Internet against claims that run counter to your preferences for what you’d like to be true?
(Be honest.)
neutral skepticism?
Not OP but yes.
But it really doesn’t matter. All we’ll get from this incident is word-of-mouth only.
Those nazis are brazen but not stupid, they didn’t film it.I sincerely believe that the world is a lot less extreme than what social media is telling us. Exceptions, yes, but those are exceptions. Most of the discussion that takes place anymore is driven by sociologically hacking us, done by interested parties to drive division and distrust. It happens on all sides. That doesn’t mean you should drop your support for peaceful protest, aid delivery, etc., but it does mean we should be aware of propaganda and manipulation that confirms our own biases. The effect of the rush to extremes is that we then create extreme situations. The world is getting uglier and uglier, largely driven by this problem.
It is also probably not true. Especially if one consider what you pointed out
The article attributes it’s claims to credible sources. Do you have evidence to the contrary, or just believe what suits you?
Right wing religious nutters are well known for treating people like shit. The modern violence, on those dried rocks, originates from around 1917. Albert Einstein is 100% correct.
Fuck Israel. Free Palestine.
