You’re right. It’s a good thing I’m not trying to explicitly deflect from my country’s sin by complaining about China letting people burn books!
Own your shit. When a nation does bad shit, call it out. Even if they’re in your “camp”. Don’t pull this “yeah but-“ fuck fuck games. This post is saying “well it’s okay that China put Muslims in camps because the West allows book burning.” Fuck off with that.
I do. Except there’s several problems with this point.
The first is that this topic is so fundamentally out of date now that it’s embarrassing. These all closed at the end of 2019. Nearly 4 fucking years ago.
The second is that they were education centres, mandatory yes and I’m quite sure some didn’t want to be there, but “camps” is absurd.
The third is that you don’t let people go home on the weekends when imprisoning them.
The issue is that people like yourself don’t actually know any of this, you repeat nonsense spoken by other people that repeat nonsense and never do one iota of investigation to discover the truth. There is a great deal of information available about what these were, what they were in response to (huge terrorism problem pouring in from radical islamic elements in afghanistan) and evidence that the US was involved in it. But again you don’t actually want to learn anything so what’s the fucking point? You’ve had 5 fucking years of this shit already and you’ve managed to avoid actually learning any of these details so why should I think you’re willing to engage in it in good faith and learn now?
Was it hugely authoritarian? Fuck yeah it was. But the western response to islamic terrorism is a military response, I actually prefer the lack of loss of life in the Chinese approach, and so does the entire Muslim world.
If you actually want to engage and maybe learn anything about this then I’m willing and able to go into everything about it with citations and detail. Let’s do it, just ask. But I don’t believe that you are.
I guess the Nazi camps were fine because they’re closed now?
And I guess “because terrorism” is a good excuse now? I mean, the US has done all kinds of fucked up shit that’s okay by that reasoning. If we had put all Saudis in reeducation camps after 9/11, you would (rightly!) call us fascists, and I’d be on your side!
Edit: that’s not even the “entire Muslim world”, and you know better than to use the boot of governments as a representation of the people.
I guess the Nazi camps were fine because they’re closed now?
Christ you are heavily proving my point about not wanting to engage in good faith. Nazi camps served the purpose of extermination, the chinese reeducation centres did no such thing. They opened, performed their job teaching language and key skills to the section of the population that were deemed “at risk” of being susceptible to the islamic extremism, and then they closed.
And I guess “because terrorism” is a good excuse now? I mean, the US has done all kinds of fucked up shit that’s okay by that reasoning. If we had put all Saudis in reeducation camps after 9/11, you would (rightly!) call us fascists, and I’d be on your side!
As good an excuse as any for such a complicated matter. Let’s try a thought experiment.
Let’s say, in YOUR country, that a religious group on a border territory is actively engaging in terrorism. Two to four times per a month mass shooting and bombings are occurring. I will try to provide some perspective on this, but my list will not include everything, I don’t have an existing list of events that is exhaustive and I hope you can understand that searches for anything about Xinjiang and China are completely polluted by utter garbage from the media to the point that searching for this shit is quite difficult now. With that said I think I can cover enough to make it visible how serious things were getting at the start of crackdowns.
September 2014 50 killed in series of multiple attacks (archive link for RFA fed written articles, unfortunately the best I can find with the shit way google works)
October 2014 22 farmers killed in attack (this article also talks about some other attacks 2 days beforehand, gives some idea of what kind of things I’ve missed or not been able to find dedicated articles for, this stuff was easier to follow in real-time than it is to research now)
This is far from exhaustive. This is a mentally exhausting topic to research and I hope you’ll forgive me for not really going the full length to show just how fucking bad things were, re-reading about each of these is upsetting, they are all horrible events. Consider these some of the big ones, the easiest to find in each month, but there were many more peppered in between them.
Now, back to the thought experiment - this is happening in YOUR country. What do you do to stop it? It is increasing, and a foreign adversary is actively involved in your neighbouring country over the border using their intelligence agencies to make it worse, they are trying to pour this far right terrorism over the border to cause a crisis in your country that can be exploited. You should watch Colonel Lawrence Wilkerson, Chief of Staff to the Secretary of State at the time, talk about doing just that from 20:53 to 23:12 (just 2 minutes).. Keep in mind that he said this BEFORE the huge media explosion about this topic, a full year before China actually opened anything, this talk is from August 2018, several months before the narrative about Uighur camps started in 2019.
Edit: that’s not even the “entire Muslim world”, and you know better than to use the boot of governments as a representation of the people.
The people support it. You should try actually speaking to anyone from muslim countries about whether they like China or the west. The problem is that you do not, you only listen to white western media and white western liberals. You are a nationalist, an american/western empire nationalist. You do not listen to or engage with anything outside the “international community” (Canada/America/EU/Australia grouping of America and the empire’s vassals). You make claims about “the people” while blatantly having no idea what the people in those countries believe because you have never spoken to anyone from them. When’s the last time you spoke to an Iraqi currently living in Iraq? Or anyone currently living in India? Saudi? Iran? Any fucking where? I speak to people in all of them regularly. Through party activities and because I make the conscious EFFORT to seek information outside the western media bubble and western left because if you do not you end up completely and utterly brainwormed.
So anyway, side-rant over and back to the topic at hand. This terrorism is what caused China to go into a mega crackdown on the region. Roadblocks, mass surveillance and police-state shit. Fuck loads of people were dying and the CIA working to pour these islamic fundamentalist separatists over the border from Afghanistan was genuinely causing an enormous issue.
What followed this was several years of increasing their infrastructure to crack down on the region very hard. Followed by the final re-education program that involved some 1-2 million people undergoing the compulsory education programs 5 days per week (allowed to go home on weekends).
This is what put a stop to the violence, and it was this final program that led to America no longer having any purpose for being in Afghanistan anymore, their ability to stoke extremism in the region had finally been completely eliminated. It took considerable time to build up to that though, the important year that began the process was the enormous violence of 2014.
Back to that thought experiment. Tell me, if this was happening in your country - What would you have done?
Has the USA owned Chile, Afghanistan, Iraq, Philippines, Indonesia, Vietnam, Cambodia, Marshall Islands, Honduras, Haiti, black prison labour, I could go on if you want…?
Sure, just don’t degrade the severity of what a genocide means for political gain. It used to mean genocide was extermination of people based on their ethnicity. At the same standard the USA holds China, mow I can say the USA imprisoning black people systemically and putting them in parole programs to force them to get work in menial jobs amounts to genocide because is 1) systemic and 2) destroys a culture counter to the main society. Your country is committing genocide right now if you held it to the same standards at you hold China.
Point at where I said genocide. I didn’t use that word here because I know it’s contested in this case and I know it has a definition that I’m not interested in degrading. You said that word.
Regardless, this has nothing to do with my point. My point is that if a country is doing $thing, pointing at $otherthing means nothing. You’re deflecting.
Do US people deflect by pointing at China? Yep. Our guys totally deflect when they want to distract from shit. But this post brought it up, so own it.
You’re right. It’s a good thing I’m not trying to explicitly deflect from my country’s sin by complaining about China letting people burn books!
Own your shit. When a nation does bad shit, call it out. Even if they’re in your “camp”. Don’t pull this “yeah but-“ fuck fuck games. This post is saying “well it’s okay that China put Muslims in camps because the West allows book burning.” Fuck off with that.
I do. Except there’s several problems with this point.
The first is that this topic is so fundamentally out of date now that it’s embarrassing. These all closed at the end of 2019. Nearly 4 fucking years ago.
The second is that they were education centres, mandatory yes and I’m quite sure some didn’t want to be there, but “camps” is absurd.
The third is that you don’t let people go home on the weekends when imprisoning them.
The issue is that people like yourself don’t actually know any of this, you repeat nonsense spoken by other people that repeat nonsense and never do one iota of investigation to discover the truth. There is a great deal of information available about what these were, what they were in response to (huge terrorism problem pouring in from radical islamic elements in afghanistan) and evidence that the US was involved in it. But again you don’t actually want to learn anything so what’s the fucking point? You’ve had 5 fucking years of this shit already and you’ve managed to avoid actually learning any of these details so why should I think you’re willing to engage in it in good faith and learn now?
Was it hugely authoritarian? Fuck yeah it was. But the western response to islamic terrorism is a military response, I actually prefer the lack of loss of life in the Chinese approach, and so does the entire Muslim world.
If you actually want to engage and maybe learn anything about this then I’m willing and able to go into everything about it with citations and detail. Let’s do it, just ask. But I don’t believe that you are.
I guess the Nazi camps were fine because they’re closed now?
And I guess “because terrorism” is a good excuse now? I mean, the US has done all kinds of fucked up shit that’s okay by that reasoning. If we had put all Saudis in reeducation camps after 9/11, you would (rightly!) call us fascists, and I’d be on your side!
Edit: that’s not even the “entire Muslim world”, and you know better than to use the boot of governments as a representation of the people.
Christ you are heavily proving my point about not wanting to engage in good faith. Nazi camps served the purpose of extermination, the chinese reeducation centres did no such thing. They opened, performed their job teaching language and key skills to the section of the population that were deemed “at risk” of being susceptible to the islamic extremism, and then they closed.
As good an excuse as any for such a complicated matter. Let’s try a thought experiment.
Let’s say, in YOUR country, that a religious group on a border territory is actively engaging in terrorism. Two to four times per a month mass shooting and bombings are occurring. I will try to provide some perspective on this, but my list will not include everything, I don’t have an existing list of events that is exhaustive and I hope you can understand that searches for anything about Xinjiang and China are completely polluted by utter garbage from the media to the point that searching for this shit is quite difficult now. With that said I think I can cover enough to make it visible how serious things were getting at the start of crackdowns.
January 2014, 11 militants dead in attempt to cross Kyrgyzstan border gone wrong
March 2014 Multiple attackers with knives. 29 dead at a train station. 137 injured
April 2014 7 killed in shootout attempting to cross the border with weapons.
April 2014 (2 weeks later) Bombing and knife attack at railway station in Xinjiang. 3 killed, 79 injured.
May 2014 A few weeks later, 2 car bombings on markets, killed 43, injured 90
June 2014 Quieter month, China sentence 9 to death and 81 more to prison for involvement in organising some of the previous attacks
July 2014 37 killed by gang with knives and axes in Xinjiang
September 2014 50 killed in series of multiple attacks (archive link for RFA fed written articles, unfortunately the best I can find with the shit way google works)
October 2014 22 farmers killed in attack (this article also talks about some other attacks 2 days beforehand, gives some idea of what kind of things I’ve missed or not been able to find dedicated articles for, this stuff was easier to follow in real-time than it is to research now)
November 2014 15 killed in another attack
This is far from exhaustive. This is a mentally exhausting topic to research and I hope you’ll forgive me for not really going the full length to show just how fucking bad things were, re-reading about each of these is upsetting, they are all horrible events. Consider these some of the big ones, the easiest to find in each month, but there were many more peppered in between them.
Now, back to the thought experiment - this is happening in YOUR country. What do you do to stop it? It is increasing, and a foreign adversary is actively involved in your neighbouring country over the border using their intelligence agencies to make it worse, they are trying to pour this far right terrorism over the border to cause a crisis in your country that can be exploited. You should watch Colonel Lawrence Wilkerson, Chief of Staff to the Secretary of State at the time, talk about doing just that from 20:53 to 23:12 (just 2 minutes).. Keep in mind that he said this BEFORE the huge media explosion about this topic, a full year before China actually opened anything, this talk is from August 2018, several months before the narrative about Uighur camps started in 2019.
The people support it. You should try actually speaking to anyone from muslim countries about whether they like China or the west. The problem is that you do not, you only listen to white western media and white western liberals. You are a nationalist, an american/western empire nationalist. You do not listen to or engage with anything outside the “international community” (Canada/America/EU/Australia grouping of America and the empire’s vassals). You make claims about “the people” while blatantly having no idea what the people in those countries believe because you have never spoken to anyone from them. When’s the last time you spoke to an Iraqi currently living in Iraq? Or anyone currently living in India? Saudi? Iran? Any fucking where? I speak to people in all of them regularly. Through party activities and because I make the conscious EFFORT to seek information outside the western media bubble and western left because if you do not you end up completely and utterly brainwormed.
So anyway, side-rant over and back to the topic at hand. This terrorism is what caused China to go into a mega crackdown on the region. Roadblocks, mass surveillance and police-state shit. Fuck loads of people were dying and the CIA working to pour these islamic fundamentalist separatists over the border from Afghanistan was genuinely causing an enormous issue.
What followed this was several years of increasing their infrastructure to crack down on the region very hard. Followed by the final re-education program that involved some 1-2 million people undergoing the compulsory education programs 5 days per week (allowed to go home on weekends).
This is what put a stop to the violence, and it was this final program that led to America no longer having any purpose for being in Afghanistan anymore, their ability to stoke extremism in the region had finally been completely eliminated. It took considerable time to build up to that though, the important year that began the process was the enormous violence of 2014.
Back to that thought experiment. Tell me, if this was happening in your country - What would you have done?
EDIT: Anyone seeking more info can learn here.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s): https://piped.video/watch?v=91wz5syVNZs&t=1252s
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source, check me out at GitHub.
Wait so we’re still mad at Germany?
Germany owned their shit.
Has the USA owned Chile, Afghanistan, Iraq, Philippines, Indonesia, Vietnam, Cambodia, Marshall Islands, Honduras, Haiti, black prison labour, I could go on if you want…?
This is still “butt butt-“
No. The sins of another country do not make another’s okay. You call it out. We call out the US all the time, and it deserves it. And so does China.
Sure, just don’t degrade the severity of what a genocide means for political gain. It used to mean genocide was extermination of people based on their ethnicity. At the same standard the USA holds China, mow I can say the USA imprisoning black people systemically and putting them in parole programs to force them to get work in menial jobs amounts to genocide because is 1) systemic and 2) destroys a culture counter to the main society. Your country is committing genocide right now if you held it to the same standards at you hold China.
Point at where I said genocide. I didn’t use that word here because I know it’s contested in this case and I know it has a definition that I’m not interested in degrading. You said that word.
Regardless, this has nothing to do with my point. My point is that if a country is doing $thing, pointing at $otherthing means nothing. You’re deflecting.
Do US people deflect by pointing at China? Yep. Our guys totally deflect when they want to distract from shit. But this post brought it up, so own it.