The USA under Trump tried to depose the Venezuelan leader only 5 years ago or so. Speaking of Trump, a large portion of the USA is currently striving to elect someone who tried to overthrow democracy in their own nation. Electoral scrutiny is all well and good, but is the USA really the right arbitrator given their domestic election problems and history of interfering in Central/South America? What do Venezuelans think about US involvement?
Imran Khan was coup’d in 2022 for his independent foreign policies and replaced with a pro-US puppet (who sent weapons to Ukraine and bombed Iran), despite Imran being highly popular in Pakistan.
He won this year’s election from jail despite the whole election being completely filled with vote-rigging. It’s not quite clear where things are gonna go from here.
I asked for a source or evidence. You provided a statement made by Imran Khan himself. A statement by a politician claiming that the US backed a coup in Pakistan is not evidence.
Edit: Why are people downvoting? Do you guys take politicians’ statements as fact now? What is your bar for evidence?
It’s pretty much been confirmed because Imran Khan released parts of the message that match the version the intercept received much later, of which I already pointed out he was charged with breaking the state secrets law.
Lu was very set on wanting Imran Khan gone via the NCV. This cable wasn’t meant to negotiate anything with Imran Khan or even tell him to rectify his stance on Ukraine. He said clearly that ties with Washington deteriorated and would only be restored if IK was removed.
More importantly, the cable was directed towards the Pakistan army who has the ultimate power in Pakistan (and incidentally has been bribed several times before). They did as they were asked and helped the NCV succeed by helping the opposition bribe and coerce party members to swap sides overnight. Then, they swiftly arrested IK, banned PTI as a political party, tortured and killed their party members, assassinated some journalists, shutdown the internet, banned Twitter, and called it a day.
It’s nothing new for the USA or even Pakistan, it’s just that this was probably the first grassroots populist party in Pakistan to ever get a chance at running the country and it lasted all but 5 seconds because that invovled the idea of foreign sovereignty which is something the USA doesn’t like.
They can and will use whatever means necessary to keep their leverage in the global geopolitical scene.
I read the content of the transcript. A lot of leaps are being made from one diplomat’s statements. Lu simply said they don’t want to cooperate with a leader that is rubbing shoulders with Putin and it’s perfectly reasonable considering a) Pakistan is the recipient of US foreign aid b) Putin is doing his best to annex every territory around Russia that he can before anyone stops him. Whatever Pakistan did to oust him needs further proof that it is directly caused by US interference. I haven’t seen that yet.
Edit: you know what guys; this one politicians claims and a random cable is all we need. No further proof needed. American imperialism genocide colonialism western hegemony – did I get all the poli-sci 101 buzzwords in yet or did I leave any out? Someone needs to create an ‘america bad’ phrase generator already. That is the sum of discourse on Lemmy after all.
Really, someone physically in the space with direct experience of the event in question is not evidence? It’s because he’s brown and worships a god from the wrong part of the world, isn’t it?
Russia had no effect on US elections. Please update your understanding, it’s years old now. The Mueller report was clear on this point - Russia’s connections were far deeper and more effective (in both directions) with the Democrats than the Republicans
The point you’re trying to make here isn’t very clear.
Are you saying:
That Russia didn’t try to interfere with the 2016 and 2020 US presidential elections?
Or are you saying that Russia did try to interfere, but they were incompetent and couldn’t actually do it?
Or are you saying the Muller report clearly stated that there is a deep connection between Democrats and Russia, and only a much weaker connection between Russia and Republicans?
Something else entirely or some combination of all of these?
The report concludes that the investigation “did not establish that members of the Trump campaign conspired or coordinated with the Russian government in its election interference activities”.[4][5][6] Investigators had an incomplete picture of what happened due in part to some communications that were encrypted, deleted, or not saved, as well as testimony that was false, incomplete, or declined.[7][8][9]
More importantly:
However, the report states that Russian interference in the 2016 presidential election was illegal and occurred “in sweeping and systematic fashion”[10][11][12] but was welcomed by the Trump campaign as it expected to benefit from such efforts.[13][14][15] It also identifies myriad links between Trump associates and Russian officials and spies,[16] about which several persons connected to the campaign made false statements and obstructed investigations.[4] Mueller later stated that his investigation’s conclusion on Russian interference “deserves the attention of every American”.[17]
Despite the Russian influence campaign, Trump lost the popular vote by 3 million votes.
So, despite Russian attempts at manipulating the population, Clinton lost because of the electoral college, an institution designed by the founders to ensure that minority land owners would always be able to override the popular will of the masses. Russia’s political meddling is demonstrably far less effective than US meddling globally.
The USA under Trump tried to depose the Venezuelan leader only 5 years ago or so. Speaking of Trump, a large portion of the USA is currently striving to elect someone who tried to overthrow democracy in their own nation. Electoral scrutiny is all well and good, but is the USA really the right arbitrator given their domestic election problems and history of interfering in Central/South America? What do Venezuelans think about US involvement?
Biden successfully deposed of Pakistan’s elected leader lol.
Source?
Imran Khan was coup’d in 2022 for his independent foreign policies and replaced with a pro-US puppet (who sent weapons to Ukraine and bombed Iran), despite Imran being highly popular in Pakistan.
He won this year’s election from jail despite the whole election being completely filled with vote-rigging. It’s not quite clear where things are gonna go from here.
I asked for a source or evidence. You provided a statement made by Imran Khan himself. A statement by a politician claiming that the US backed a coup in Pakistan is not evidence.
Edit: Why are people downvoting? Do you guys take politicians’ statements as fact now? What is your bar for evidence?
Leaked cable:
https://theintercept.com/2023/08/09/imran-khan-pakistan-cypher-ukraine-russia/
IK being charged by attempting to disclose the secret cable:
https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/ex-pm-imran-khans-leak-secret-cable-hurt-pakistan-court-ruling-2024-02-01/
Wow. So i read the full transcript. A few points.
We don’t know where this document originated and the intercept has not authenticated it (they at least claim as much)
Nothing Lu said is out of line. Which part do you take umbrage with? Khan is definitely putting his spin on this.
It’s pretty much been confirmed because Imran Khan released parts of the message that match the version the intercept received much later, of which I already pointed out he was charged with breaking the state secrets law.
Lu was very set on wanting Imran Khan gone via the NCV. This cable wasn’t meant to negotiate anything with Imran Khan or even tell him to rectify his stance on Ukraine. He said clearly that ties with Washington deteriorated and would only be restored if IK was removed.
More importantly, the cable was directed towards the Pakistan army who has the ultimate power in Pakistan (and incidentally has been bribed several times before). They did as they were asked and helped the NCV succeed by helping the opposition bribe and coerce party members to swap sides overnight. Then, they swiftly arrested IK, banned PTI as a political party, tortured and killed their party members, assassinated some journalists, shutdown the internet, banned Twitter, and called it a day.
It’s nothing new for the USA or even Pakistan, it’s just that this was probably the first grassroots populist party in Pakistan to ever get a chance at running the country and it lasted all but 5 seconds because that invovled the idea of foreign sovereignty which is something the USA doesn’t like.
They can and will use whatever means necessary to keep their leverage in the global geopolitical scene.
I read the content of the transcript. A lot of leaps are being made from one diplomat’s statements. Lu simply said they don’t want to cooperate with a leader that is rubbing shoulders with Putin and it’s perfectly reasonable considering a) Pakistan is the recipient of US foreign aid b) Putin is doing his best to annex every territory around Russia that he can before anyone stops him. Whatever Pakistan did to oust him needs further proof that it is directly caused by US interference. I haven’t seen that yet.
Edit: you know what guys; this one politicians claims and a random cable is all we need. No further proof needed. American imperialism genocide colonialism western hegemony – did I get all the poli-sci 101 buzzwords in yet or did I leave any out? Someone needs to create an ‘america bad’ phrase generator already. That is the sum of discourse on Lemmy after all.
Really, someone physically in the space with direct experience of the event in question is not evidence? It’s because he’s brown and worships a god from the wrong part of the world, isn’t it?
The downvotes are because of your petulant whining.
Asking for evidence is “whining”. Gotcha.
No, no, the whining is the whining.
Removed by mod
Then Russia interferes with US election. It’s election interference all the way down.
Except it stops at countries like Russia where the complete election is fake.
Unlike our glorious US empire where the elections are definitely totally legit (don’t ask why Trump won despite getting less votes)
No liberal “democracies” are democratic in the first place on account of being capitalist dictatorships
Remember when gore won the election and then Bush became president? Or when Hilary got more votes and then trump became president?
Russia had no effect on US elections. Please update your understanding, it’s years old now. The Mueller report was clear on this point - Russia’s connections were far deeper and more effective (in both directions) with the Democrats than the Republicans
The point you’re trying to make here isn’t very clear.
Are you saying:
They’re points perfectly clear; it’s right there in their first sentence. You’re just being deliberately obtuse.
You’re being unnecessarily hostile. There is a lot of ambiguity in the statement as I outlined my comment.
If you can clarify the point they were trying to make that would be great, if not you’re proving no value to this conversation.
Read the fucking Muller report or a summary of its findings re Russia and you’ll have your answer
Also unnecessarily hostile.
I’ve read the Mueller report and nothing in there supports your claims, which makes your statement even more confusing.
From the Wikipedia article on the Mueller report:
More importantly:
https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/questions-mueller-russiagate/
https://www.brookings.edu/articles/what-the-mueller-report-tells-us-about-russian-influence-operations/
Despite the Russian influence campaign, Trump lost the popular vote by 3 million votes.
So, despite Russian attempts at manipulating the population, Clinton lost because of the electoral college, an institution designed by the founders to ensure that minority land owners would always be able to override the popular will of the masses. Russia’s political meddling is demonstrably far less effective than US meddling globally.