• ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆@lemmy.mlOP
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    1 year ago

    It would be up to the people who live there to figure out how to run things. This is certainly not an argument for US to continue occupying them.

    • adroit balloon@lemmy.ml
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      1 year ago

      how is it an “occupation” when Hawaiians themselves voted to become a state by a 94+% majority?

      On June 27, 1959, a referendum asked residents of Hawaiʻi to vote on the statehood bill; 94.3% voted in favor of statehood and 5.7% opposed it. (source)

      • 🔻Sleepless One🔻@lemmygrad.ml
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        1 year ago

        If voting “yes” on a referendum to be annexed is an accurate way of knowing that the majority of the populace supports annexation, does the same logic apply to Crimea being annexed by Russia? If not, why not?

        • adroit balloon@lemmy.ml
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          1 year ago

          If voting “yes” on a referendum to be annexed

          inventing some history again are you? because this never happened. if you have to stoop this low to try to “score points” how much lower will you stoop?

          • 🔻Sleepless One🔻@lemmygrad.ml
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            1 year ago

            So you don’t have an argument and have to make shit up. Cool. Judging by your other responses in the thread, you’re a shill trying to astroturf support for the U.S., so Imma block you 💅

            • adroit balloon@lemmy.ml
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              1 year ago

              So you don’t have an argument and have to make shit up.

              “I know you are but what am I?” is not a convincing argument. most people learn this when they’re 5.

              Judging by your other responses in the thread, you’re a shill trying to astroturf support for the U.S., so Imma block you 💅

              nah, just argue the facts, which I provide. you don’t like it and hurl childish insults in response. blocking me is doing ME a favor. bye!

            • adroit balloon@lemmy.ml
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              1 year ago

              Uhhh https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2014/03/16/290525623/crimeans-vote-on-splitting-from-ukraine-to-join-russia

              there’s moving the goalposts, then there’s moving them 55 years into the future and to the other side of the planet.

              We’re taking about Hawaii here. you’re so lost and hate the US and “The West™®©” so much that you think this is one of your Ukaine/Russia arguments. WOW….

              • 420blazeit69 [he/him]@hexbear.net
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                1 year ago
                1. You said “[a yes vote on Russia annexing Crimea] never happened.”
                2. I showed that it did.
                3. You responded with “We’re taking about Hawaii here.”

                Get the fuck out of here

                • adroit balloon@lemmy.ml
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                  1 year ago

                  You said “[a yes vote on Russia annexing Crimea] never happened.”

                  YOU said that. keep your words out of my mouth.

                  I showed that it did.

                  you know everyone can see your comments and my comments, right? that is very much not what happened, as anyone with eyeballs can see. I’m sorry that you’re having trouble seeing reality. consult a physician.

                  You responded with “We’re taking about Hawaii here.”

                  because we are, despite your attempts to change the subject. are you lost again?

      • ikilledtheradiostar [comrade/them, love/loves]@hexbear.net
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        1 year ago

        The choice was to become a state or remain a territory. Either yes or no would have had Hawaiian peoples occupied. Statehood could be seen as a regaining a scrap of self determination but all it ended up doing was impoverishing the natives and ceding all wealth to colonizing capitalists. This is a primarily function of bourgeois democracy.

        • adroit balloon@lemmy.ml
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          1 year ago

          by voting to become a state - especially to such an overwhelming majority - you can hardly argue a dispositive attitude towards the US being there or towards joining the union. so, not only have you moved the goalposts, you’re arguing a straw man and your own emotions.

          I’m sticking with provable facts.

          • ikilledtheradiostar [comrade/them, love/loves]@hexbear.net
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            1 year ago

            Once again they were given a choice between becoming a state or remaining a territory. Not for independence. It’d be like offering a scrap of bread to a starving man in exchange for the man legitimizing your ability to keep him malnourished.

            The ole adage of "the only thing worse than being exploited is not being exploited " comes to mind.

            Since you can’t be assed to read your own damn wiki article I assume you’re just in bad faith.

            • adroit balloon@lemmy.ml
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              1 year ago

              Once again they were given a choice between becoming a state or remaining a territory

              Hawaiians could have protested, revolted, or one of many other options. But they didn’t.

              That’s the thing about facts— your opinions don’t magically make them untrue, regardless of how many folksy sayings or logical fallacies you conjure.

              • Kaputnik [he/him]@hexbear.net
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                1 year ago

                Like the Hawaiian Sovereignty Movement which began actively protesting and gained support in the 1960s, pretty soon after the referendum?

                • adroit balloon@lemmy.ml
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                  1 year ago

                  Like the Hawaiian Sovereignty Movement

                  sure. why not? people can object to or protest anything.

                  the fee expression of speech in a democratic forum, however, certainly argues against any of this being “fascist”, though. thanks of pointing this out!

                  • Kaputnik [he/him]@hexbear.net
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                    1 year ago

                    So then your point about

                    Hawaiians could have protested, revolted, or one of many other options. But they didn’t.

                    Is false

                    So to quote you

                    That’s the thing about facts— your opinions don’t magically make them untrue, regardless of how many folksy sayings or logical fallacies you conjure.

              • redtea@lemmygrad.ml
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                1 year ago

                What if 90% of Hawaiians had revolted (and lost) while 90%+ of the other 10% of Hawaiians voted in the referendum?

              • QueerCommie@lemmygrad.ml
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                1 year ago

                You’re the one reducing possibilities. Your dichotomy is between staying a territory and becoming a state. While being a state is nominally better than being outright occupied subjects, prior to colonization they were better off, and you suggest decolonization and not being colonized aren’t options.

                • adroit balloon@lemmy.ml
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                  1 year ago

                  You’re the one reducing possibilities. Your dichotomy is between staying a territory and becoming a state

                  I never made this argument, but several others here did. in fact, I, several times, pointed out that there were other possibilities.

                  clearly you’re confused.

        • adroit balloon@lemmy.ml
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          1 year ago

          sigh…

          Should I kill you with my sword or with my gun?

          Sorry, “I want to live” was not an option on the ballot

            • redtea@lemmygrad.ml
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              1 year ago

              False dichotomy is when you point out that people might want something other than two shit binary choices.

            • adroit balloon@lemmy.ml
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              1 year ago

              your lack of ability to imagine another option (such as revolt, etc.) does not mean you “win” the argument. it just means you lose because you lack imagination.

              • CascadeOfLight [he/him]@hexbear.net
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                1 year ago

                YOUR ARGUMENT is that the result of this referendum matters. It doesn’t because, as you’ve identified, both options are the same. As for Hawaiian resistance, they’ve been fighting continuously for a hundred years and, like every other liberation movement against the USA, have been ruthlessly suppressed by the fascist police and petty-bourgeoise militia of the “middle class”. And, like every other liberation struggle, victory is inevitable as the empire continues to crumble beneath the weight of its sins.

                Also, neat how you’ve got five devoted followers upvoting you within two minutes on every one of your shitty empire-shilling posts for the last several hours thinkin-lenin

                • Rom [he/him]@hexbear.net
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                  1 year ago

                  Yeah I’ve seen at least two of this dork’s alts posting the same dumb infographics of logical fallacies that they themselves are committing without a hint of irony.

                • adroit balloon@lemmy.ml
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                  1 year ago

                  YOUR ARGUMENT is that the result of this referendum matters

                  The FACTS bear that out. you’re attacking me because I pointed that out.

                  It doesn’t because, as you’ve identified, both options are the same

                  I didn’t say that, you did. keep your words out of my mouth.

                  As for Hawaiian resistance, they’ve been fighting continuously for a hundred years and, like every other liberation movement against the USA, have been ruthlessly suppressed by the fascist police and petty-bourgeoise militia of the “middle class”.

                  relevant to the argument, and a

                  you guys are addicted to logical fallacies

                  And, like every other liberation struggle, victory is inevitable as the empire continues to crumble beneath the weight of its sins.

                  cute story. also irrelevant

                  Also, neat how you’ve got five devoted followers upvoting you within two minutes on every one of your shitty empire-shilling posts for the last several hours

                  jealousy is an ugly look

      • ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆@lemmy.mlOP
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        1 year ago

        from your own link

        In 1897, over 21,000 Natives, representing the overwhelming majority of adult Hawaiians, signed anti-annexation petitions in one of the first examples of protest against the overthrow of Queen Liliʻuokalaniʻs government.[143] Nearly 100 years later, in 1993, 17,000 Hawaiians marched to demand access and control over Hawaiian trust lands and as part of the modern Hawaiian sovereignty movement.[144] Hawaiian trust land ownership and use is still widely contested as a consequence of annexation. According to scholar Winona LaDuke, as of 2015, 95% of Hawaiʻiʻs land was owned or controlled by just 82 landholders, including over 50% by federal and state governments, as well as the established sugar and pineapple companies.[144] The Thirty Meter Telescope is planned to be built on Hawaiian trust land, but has faced resistance as the project interferes with Kanaka indigeneity.[clarify][145]

        If you think a referendum from 1959 fairly represents the interests of the native population then what else is there to say.

        • adroit balloon@lemmy.ml
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          1 year ago

          If you think a referendum from 1959 fairly represents the interests of the native population then what else is there to say.

          that it does, and you have failed to prove otherwise despite quoting a block f text you clearly don’t understand— OR are intentionally misrepresenting, hoping everyone else here is too stupid to realize you’re trying to pull a fast one on them.

          Fortunately, I’m not the idiot you think I am.

            • adroit balloon@lemmy.ml
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              1 year ago

              A referendum to either become a state or remain a territory is not relevant to the question of the occupation.

              only because you’ve moved the goalposts when you couldn’t win that argument with facts.

              People were never given a choice of independence

              the people always ave that choice. they can protest, revolt, etc. Did the Bolsheviks just ask the Tsars to pretty please step aside?

              Seems that you’re intentionally arguing in bad faith here.

              I’m not the one ignoring facts, employing logical fallacies and hurling personal insults when I don’t “win” online arguments.

              Clearly you’re a much bigger idiot than I thought you were.

              can’t argue with facts, so playskool insults it is. classy. no wonder I see he molding full of you getting posts and comments removed, and you’re totally banned form lemmy.world.

              also explains this post https://lemmy.ml/post/2756876

              • ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆@lemmy.mlOP
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                1 year ago

                only because you’ve moved the goalposts when you couldn’t win that argument with facts.

                I didn’t move any goal posts. I said Hawaii is an occupied territory, and you came back with BuT ThEy HaD a RefErEnduM. Forgetting to mention that the referendum wasn’t actually about independence and that the people of Hawaii were never given a choice of independence by their occupiers.

                There is no false dichotomy here. It’s hilarious seeing your comment history where you communicate through memes like a 5 year old child.

                the people always ave that choice. they can protest, revolt, etc. Did the Bolsheviks just ask the Tsars to pretty please step aside?

                People in Hawaii are revolting against your regime as we speak.

                The facts are that you made false claim and now you don’t even have the decency to admit it. No point having further discussion with a liar.

                also explains this post https://lemmy.ml/post/2756876

                love living rent free in your collective heads

                • adroit balloon@lemmy.ml
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                  1 year ago

                  I didn’t move any goal posts.

                  “nuh-uh!” isn’t a very convincing argument. most people learn this when they’re 5.

                  There is no false dichotomy here.

                  see my previous reply

                  People in Hawaii are revolting against your regime as we speak.

                  a handful of protesters is hardly a “revolt”, but you’re adorable for thinking “big”.

                  The facts are

                  the last thing you have is a grasp on the facts. your comment an post history are proof enough of that, with a long history of bans, deleted comments, and verbally being drummed you of most places you visit or being a toxic mess.

                  love living rent free in your collective heads

                  how sad for you

                  • 420blazeit69 [he/him]@hexbear.net
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                    1 year ago

                    “nuh-uh!” isn’t a very convincing argument. most people learn this when they’re 5.

                    Amazing that @whiskeypickle@lemmy.ml, who is also a fan of those weird debate fallacy images, posted this in another thread today:

                    “nuh-uh” isn’t a convincing argument. most people learn this when they’re 5.

                    Also this, also from today:

                    “I know you are but what am I?” is not a convincing argument. most people learn this when they’re 5.

                    You also posted that second one, verbatim, this afternoon as @adroidBalloon@lemmy.ml.

                    You’re the same person, aren’t you?

                    Edit: Lol you even responded to an argument in this thread while still logged in to @whiskeypickle@lemmy.ml, then deleted it because someone noticed.

                  • ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆@lemmy.mlOP
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                    1 year ago

                    “nuh-uh!” isn’t a very convincing argument. most people learn this when they’re 5.

                    Do feel free to articulate which goal posts you’re claiming that I moved. Be specific.

                    see my previous reply

                    I did, it’s nonsensical.

                    a handful of protesters is hardly a “revolt”, but you’re adorable for thinking “big”.

                    Way to dismiss majority of the native population. I guess that’s what you’d expect from racist occupiers.

                    the last thing you have is a grasp on the facts. your comment an post history are proof enough of that, with a long history of bans, deleted comments, and verbally being drummed you of most places you visit or being a toxic mess.

                    Wow interesting narrative you made up about me there. Maybe send me of whatever drugs you’re having while hallucinating these things, cause that sounds like some good shit.

                    how sad for you

                    Nah, it’s free entertainment for me kddio.

        • adroit balloon@lemmy.ml
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          1 year ago

          note the dates. it was forcibly annexed by a coup government

          the facts don’t support your assertions. even if they did, it’s irrelevant because….

          the later vote to join as a state took place well afterwards

          just as I said and the facts I gave support. since 94% of people voted to become a state, no rational person would call it an “occupation”.

          • Kuori [she/her]@hexbear.net
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            1 year ago

            lmao you illiterate jackass. a sham vote to join a nation that overthrew your actual government by a bunch of people who moved there specifically to move the needle on that exact vote means nothing. christ, you liberals really love white nationalism as much as the flag fuckers do

    • atlasraven31@lemm.ee
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      1 year ago

      True, just clarifying the best case scenario. Did the Hawaiian people recently vote to leave the union that I am unaware of?

        • adroit balloon@lemmy.ml
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          1 year ago

          in 1959, with a 93%+ majority:

          Hawaii—a U.S. territory since 1898—became the 50th state in August, 1959, following a referendum in Hawaii in which more than 93% of the voters approved the proposition that the territory should be admitted as a state.

          There were many Hawaiian petitions for statehood during the first half of the 20th century. The voters wished to participate directly in electing their own governor and to have a full voice in national debates and elections that affected their lives. The voters also felt that statehood was warranted because they had demonstrated their loyalty—no matter what their ethnic background—to the U.S. to the fullest extent during World War II.

          (source)

          On June 27, 1959, a referendum asked residents of Hawaiʻi to vote on the statehood bill; 94.3% voted in favor of statehood and 5.7% opposed it. The referendum asked voters to choose between accepting the Act and remaining a U.S. territory. The United Nations’ Special Committee on Decolonization later removed Hawaiʻi from its list of non-self-governing territories.

          (source)

          • WhatWouldKarlDo@lemmygrad.ml
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            1 year ago

            I think it’s more than a little dishonest to say that the native Hawaiians voted for this. At the time of this referendum, they composed about 15% of the population and their culture and identity had been suppressed for generations.

            The US government even admitted in 1993 that the native people never agreed to this.

            • adroit balloon@lemmy.ml
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              I think it’s more than a little dishonest to say that the native Hawaiians voted for this.

              almost as dishonest as claiming is said something I didn’t and then moving the goalposts to win an argument…

              At the time of this referendum, they composed about 15% of the population and their culture and identity had been suppressed for generations.

              irrelevant. sad, but irrelevant. thy got to vote, just like anyone else, and, even by your numbers, 2/3 of THAT population voted for statehood.

              The US government even admitted in 1993 that the native people never agreed to this.

              that’s not what that says, but it’s nice to know how easy it is for you to lie to try to get ahead in an argument. “winning” online debates must be very important for you.

                • redtea@lemmygrad.ml
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                  1 year ago

                  Don’t forget about saying the settlers have a legitimate say on what happens to Hawaii.

                • adroit balloon@lemmy.ml
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                  Swarming lands with your settlers and then claiming b-but they muh voted for it, is peak lib cracker imperialism. The french did the same in New Caledonia.

                  so, when you can’t argue with facts, you rest to redefining words, personal insults, and racist slurs.

                  classy

            • adroit balloon@lemmy.ml
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              1 year ago

              as you can clearly see,

              On June 27, 1959, a referendum asked residents of Hawaiʻi to vote on the statehood bill; 94.3% voted in favor of statehood and 5.7% opposed it.

                  • ExLisper@linux.community
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                    1 year ago

                    Check title of this post. Do you see the word “native” there? In the title of this post that we’re commenting in? “Native”? You see it?

                  • ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆@lemmy.mlOP
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                    1 year ago

                    The discussion is about US OCCUPYING Hawaii. Imagine thinking that a referendum of the occupiers on whether they want to keep occupying is a valid way to decide whether people who have bee OCCUPIED agree with the occupation. It’s like if I moved into your house and put a gun to your head, and then ran a referendum to see if I should stay there.

                    The fact that you don’t understand how idiotic your argument is shows what an utter imbecile you are.