None dare call it Terrorism.
Terrorism, in its broadest sense, is the use of violence against non-combatants to achieve political or ideological aims.
While it’s likely there were civilians hurt by this, the target was undeniably Hesbollah. So no, not terrorism.
Likely because the bulk of those wounded by this attack were not Hezbollah
I don’t even know how you’d reasonably expect to only injure your targets in an attack as widespread and remote as this one. Seems blatantly indiscriminate at best.
Likely because the bulk of those wounded by this attack were not Hezbollah
What makes you think that? These pagers were bought by Hesbollah to be used by their guys.
These pagers were bought by Hesbollah
All we know is that a bunch of exploding pagers were distributed through Lebanon. The IDF claims they were given to Hezbollah agents, but they’ve been caught lying regularly.
Delete this post as mis info.
Uhhh, because these were bombs - bombs that were remotely and indiscriminately detonated. Some of the people were driving, some standing next to children or on busses full of people. There are reports of children who died because they were standing next to a target at head-level with the pager.There’s no guarantee they were even being carried by “Hezbollah’s guys”.
I don’t even know why anyone would assume otherwise. This was a loosely targeted terror attack
It’s a war who tf is giving guarantees?
This is some seriously delusional thinking as to how the world works.
It’s a matter of probsbility.
Someone didn’t read the parent comment.
Israel is a terrorist organization. Radical, fundamentalist Jewish terrorism.
Stunning that you’re being downvoted. This was a brilliant attack on a group that actually attacks Israel actually indiscriminately on the daily.
National order isnt based on tit for tat. If someone commits a war crime against you it doesnt mean you get to do it too.
In my opinion the time of day they chose to blow them shows they wanted as much collateral damage as they could.
What’s the advantage of making excuses for committing war crimes?
At a certain point it stops being worth it. If sending a brainwashed 11 yo to blow up a checkpoint means you can no longer trust having any technology near you, your family and friends it might cause hesitation.
Wishful thinking, they aren’t fighting because they want to. Noone likes violence.
Ah, you see it from Israel’s POV. Interesting.
No I’m saying it won’t stop the fighting because its not a choice they can make. Theres either negotiation or fighting but negotiation only works from equal footing. I don’t like violence and war of course but its not the fault of the group with less bargaining power. The larger group needs to give up power willingly to fix anything. Russia to Ukraine, Israel to Palestine and Lebanon.
Is there any time of day it’s not atrocious? Seems like any time would have basically equal risk for collateral casualties.
To be effective it all had to be at once. It seems that they waited until the pagers were being used to coordinate a fresh wave of rocket attacks with promises of more to come before setting them off.
Is there any time of day it’s not atrocious? Seems like any time would have basically equal risk for collateral casualties.
Then maybe it shouldn’t be done at all.
Maybe all an army has to do to take over the entire world is bring their families to the front. Can’t shoot back at them because their families are there. So they pretty much win every engagement. Problem solved. No more wars.
And you are saying noone is allowed to fight on their own land, as it endangers the public.
Maybe nobody should fight wars ever. Grow up.
Because that time of day is when the most people will be out in public. It seems deliberately designed to cause as much damage as widely as possible. Likely to cause fear in the population.
They put explosives in the pagers but no shrapnel, so how does your conclusion make sense? If Israel wanted to simply cause mass damage, this would be a most incompetent way to do it.
They wanted to cause fear, which is terrorism.
Damn. This must be one of the most terrifying cyber attacks of all time. Like, Mr. Robot level of breach and execution.
In that show they rig the UPS batteries of server buildings to blow up, this is basically the same idea on a smaller scale.
Either that, or they compromised the manufacturer of the pagers and put small explosive devices in there. Truly legendary and insane.
no way it was just the batteries.
batteries burn but don’t detonate with shrapnel
it was altered devices with explosives added.
Yeah they got into the supply route and added c4 to all those pagers. Makes me wonder how many pagers or smartphones have added explosives still.
Shrapnel, no, but Lithium-Ion does explode. Especially on a full charge
As someone who’s accidentally punctured a large lithium ion battery with 100% charge I can tell you that explode isn’t exactly the right word. While I’m sure you could create an enclosure that could explode from the pressure, the battery itself just kinda shoots out a small jet of fire along with some toxic gas.
Yeah, I’ve been wondering how the fuck they pulled this off. If it turns out that the only pagers that exploded belonged to Hezbollah members, then that would signal to me that this was done entirely digitally.
I’ve heard that batteries (can’t remember if it was laptop or phone batteries) contain the energy of a small grenade, but getting it to release that energy all at once without physical access is absolutely fucking wild and has serious fucking implications for device security.
EDIT: To avoid spreading misinformation, I’m providing this edit to say that the batteries absolutely were not the cause of the explosion. This was a supply-chain attack. Explosives were inserted into the pagers. The batteries in these pagers cannot be made to explode like this. I was overly excited when I made this comment.
I’ll save you time. Licensed factory in Europe, making Chinese beepers, was compromised or owned by Israel. They then put explosives in the pagers and set them to explode when paged a certain code.
They knew hezbollah was the purchaser, and would disperse them amongst its members.
I think its stupid unless it stopped some imminent horrible attack. Otherwise, Israel has given themselves away, and only killed 8 people for it. Maybe they had trouble rigging them to steal their communications.
It wasn’t “stupid”. As a psy-op, it further complicates Hezbollah’s communications, sows fear among Hezbollah members, demonstrates Israel’s far-reaching capabilities, makes civilians suspicious of Hezbollah officials, etc. If Israel does something similar a couple more times, Hezbollah will have to resort to bicycle couriers and smoke signals.
It also undermines Hezbollah’s credibility. The Lebanese people are not stupid. They know that Hezbollah is a shadow government allowing Iran to control Lebanon and use it as a staging ground for attacks on Israel. That leaves Lebanon in a permanent state of semi-war with Israel, not to mention its involvement in multiple other external conflicts. None of which is helpful for the health and prosperity of Lebanon.
Lebanon is a natural trading nation and always has been. It is a beautiful country full of kind people with excellent commercial instincts. They are held down as a nation by the fact that Hezbollah has turned the country into a pawn of the Ayatollah.
Thats a fair opinion, although I think its likely to cause the opposite reactions than you listed. But again, who really knows.
Also I’m sure most people in most places are good people, just like anywhere, Lebanon included.
Good point. I should have qualified what I said by saying that the Israeli operation may have the effects I listed. But, as you say, it might backfire and have the opposite of the intended effect. I guess that is always a risk with these types of operations.
Maybe the truth is both will happen, but its not clear which would be the majority opinion, or the opinion of those in power.
Specifically in Hungary, same country that has been voting with Israel in the UN and also has a Fascist government.
It sure makes manufacturing involving explosives much more easily to go ahead if the local government has approved of it.
I’m curious what this will do to the “Made In EU” brand in the rest of the World.
There was already an article I saw saying it will have a chilling affect on western electronics to at least some degree.
Probably not. It was almost certainly the case that these pagers were already connected to explosives, probably to be IEDs. All Israel would have had to do is page the pagers to detonate them. I can’t think of any other logical explanation.
I don’t think the thousands of pagers built this way really count as “improvised.”
That being said, it makes me wonder if this went in any way according to plan - 8 deaths and 2750 injuries is a large scale attack, don’t get me wrong. But they’ve now announced Mossad has compromised the supplier of the pager, which they will undoubtedly audit, and instill new policies on device security. I wouldn’t be surprised if that means they discover a lot more compromised electronics, allowing Hezbollah to pinpoint the compromise. Because 2750 survived, you now have 2750 people very interested in finding it.
In all, for 8 deaths, they’ve made their own work harder.
That being said 2750 injuries could be a large enough number to scare members out of the org.
I heard they recently switched to pagers because cell phones where deemed to be compromised. So I think besides the direct deaths and injuries, this attack also targeted lines of communication and trust in technology as a whole (or anything supplied by your superior even).
I am surprised the name of the manufacture is not out. This basically raise privacy concern.
I’m no fan of Hezbollah but how is this different than spreading land mines? Even if you kill civilians in an air strike at least you can claim there were enemy combatants there. Here it is just “Eh, we’ll just kill people at random and see what happens.”
These were pagers specifically ordered by Hezbollah. Random civilians wouldn’t have had them.
Ah, yes, the 2758 people were all Hezbollah.
Most likely most of them were though. I mean I don’t think many people outside Hezbollah were using pagers, not to mention that most likely they tampered one or two batches of them only.
I am just wondering what the official government of Lebanon is thinking about this incident because in my opinion that’s a huge blow into the sovereignty of a foreign country. Imagine something similar happens in Israel or the US, do you think those countries would sit on the diplomatic table and negotiate?
The problem with explosions is that they injure everyone nearby, not just the person with the explosion in their pocket.
Agree, but the explosive inside is very low, so the damage is mostly going to be inflicted on the person who this pager belonged to. From the initial reports all the casualties were linked to Hezbollah and even the girl was a daughter of a member of Hezbollah.
Me personally, I don’t defend the actions of Israel, but still think it is a lot more targeted than dropping 2000lbs. bombs over densely populated areas. Another question is of course if this will achieve anything other than strengthening the resolve of those people.
Unfortunately, nowadays to win a war, you simply need to be the richer and more advanced nation, and Israel has the upper hand here.
That “even the girl was a daughter of a member of Hezbollah” part got me very angry.
Kids don’t deserve to get blown up, even if their parents are mass murderers.
Most would blame the mass murdering parent for endangering the child.
Hey @oberstoffensichtlich@feddit.org, you were saying that “these were extremely surgical strikes, people in the vicinity weren’t harmed”?
Thousands of people injured, all guilty of something ofc, because Israel would never do an attack which might harm innocents. Right? /S
fairly sure hezbollah has more than 2800 members
You’re genuinely pathetic enough to try and imply that none of the victims are innocent?
I loathe “people” like you.
I think they’re implying this mostly hit Hezbollah members, not than none of the victims were innocent.
That said, you do know Hezbollah is basically the same as Israel, just without the backing of the USA, right? They also want genocide. The way this was dealt with was one of the best options when dealing with a group that wants to genocide your country. It also shows Israel chose to start the war with Hamas, and likely allowed the October 7 attack to happen, if they’ve had this capability all along.
The dad who’s girl died literally brought this on himself. He chose religious fanaticism over family. He’s in Lebanon, not Gaza, not West Bank - he could have chosen not to be part of a group that wants to wipe out a whole nother group. This is on him the same way it’s on an antivaxxer when they’re kid gets sick. There’s plenty of damn good reasons to wish Netanyahu dead and in hell, but this ain’t one. I doubt him and his right wing extremist possé came up with this operation since they would have deliberately chosen something with way more innocent casualties.
I think they’re implying this mostly hit Hezbollah members, not than none of the victims were innocent.
Based on… what exactly?
The clear implication is that “number of Hezbollah member > victims = no innocent victims.”
And then you instantly jump into defending genocide. Holy fucking shit I honestly can’t communicate with words how disgustingly pathetic I find that.
No, I’m not gonna engage with your whataboutism and start arguing with you about how “Hezbollah deserved this absolutely pathetic terrorist attack.”
“Brought it on himself brought it on himself”
You fuckers still haven’t realised that Hammurabi’s law makes the whole world blind, huh? That was almost 4000 years ago, ffs. Read a book, preferably a modern one and not some tome of propaganda from thousands of years ago.
You’re literally defending the death of a 9-year old girl. You have to be sick in the fucking head to do that. Honestly.
And you should read Popper’s Paradox of Tolerance.
Eye for an eye makes the world go blind only works when one party doesn’t exist solely to exterminate another.
That’s what Hezbollah is.
I have never defended genociders - you on the other hand keep defending Hezbollah.
The world needs to deal with Hezbollah the same way it needs to deal with Zionism and the same way it eventually dealt with the Nazis.
Tell me dumbass, do you think Netanyahu and co. will stop his campaign on Gaza if everyone decided not to retaliate? Or would he just order his men to take advantage of the situation and shoot them down? Do you think the Nazis or any other group, such as Hezbollah, intent on genocide would accept peace?
Of course ideally such corrupt evil fucks could be eliminated with no innocent casualties. But that’s unfortunately not the way the world works. Do you think innocent casualties didn’t occur when other fascist evils were fought? You think only military personnel were killed in WW2?
You’re either a naïve kid, or have thought up of miracle solution like a death note.
This was a case of monsters fighting monsters; we’re lucky that this at least was an actual very precise strike one monster did to the others, rather than their usual M.O. of just striking buildings with missiles.
You’re seriously saying “they deserve the ‘eye-for-an-eye’ treatment” while Israel is actively escalating the conflict?
I have never defended genociders
Oh okay. So where have I done that? In assuming that 3000 civilians who were harmed weren’t exclusively Hezbollah? Which would be an utterly ridiculous claim seeing how many literal children there are involved.
So… you’ve never defended genociders. Then let’s see if you will. Is Israel committing a genocide in Gaza?
You think only military personnel were killed in WW2?
I’ve actually been in the military and have had training on what is and isn’t legal to do in armed conflict. Have you?
https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/customary-ihl/v1/rule12
Rule 12. Definition of Indiscriminate Attacks
Rule 12. Indiscriminate attacks are those: (a) which are not directed at a specific military objective;
(b) which employ a method or means of combat which cannot be directed at a specific military objective; or
© which employ a method or means of combat the effects of which cannot be limited as required by international humanitarian law; and consequently, in each such case, are of a nature to strike military objectives and civilians or civilian objects without distinction.
Which country’s military? Because I’m more than willing to bet your country has killed innocents too, even if by accident. Depending on the country, like the USA, deliberately killing them too. Congratulations on choosing to actively participating in that horridness I suppose.
Is Israel committing a genocide in Gaza?
I see you weren’t the reading comprehension guy in the military. But since you need it directly spelled out for your crayon eating ass to understand - yes, the Israeli government is committing genocide. You know who else is trying their hand at Genocide? Hezbollah.
But hey, while we have ‘holier than thou’ ex-military on the line, how about a bit of a trolley problem for you:
If you could dispose of Netanyahu along with the top heads of his genocidal campaign, at the cost of 10 children, would you? And just to make it even easier on you, let’s add that doing so will end Israel’s current war and genocide campaign too.
They limited the attacks by replacing the pagers ordered by Hezzbollah, not the pagers ordered by anyone.
Are you dense?
Naive kid.
Bud Hezzbollah ordered 3,000 pagers for it’s members specifically because they were moving away from cell phones.
How much more targeted do you want? I remember my first war.
“How much more targeted”
Than indiscriminate bomb attacks at population centers?
VERY much more targeted. This is no more accurate than looking at a phone book for addresses that people who may or may not have been associated with Hezbollah at some point and then bombing those apartment buildings, not caring who else lives there.
There are rules about war. Rules which you clearly have no idea of. No matter how despicable a terrorist organisation is, it doesn’t mean it’s morally okay for you to stoop to theirs fucking level.
Israel is a member of the UN, and has promised to obey these international laws as a part of the global community. If they want to say “fuck you we’re allowed to kill however many civilians we happen to fucking kill with whatever flimsy excuse we may have”, then soon Israel won’t be a respected member of the global community, but another shitty terrorist state that everyone despises.
Is that what Israel said? No.
98% of Gaza is still alive after one year of all this indiscriminate bombing and genocide.
There’s a very obvious reason why the civilian death toll and Gaza is so high and it’s because that is the strategy of Hamas, to purposefully raise that number. They have literally no other leverage then to try and get as many people as possible killed while the elite Gazan’s hide underground, and run to the ICJ and claim war crimes. Remember that first week of airstrikes last October, when Hamas launched a social media campaign to convince people that the evacuation warnings and airstrike warnings were a hoax?
Look how well it is working on you. Why are you siding with the view taken by Iran, Qatar, Malaysia, Turkey, Jordan, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and Islamic State, all of them led by far right nationalists, dictators and monarchs, against the view taken by America, Canada, Australia, Japan, and France? That’s not a red flag to you that maybe your moral compass has led you astray?
Maybe you’re right, and you think the west should abandon Israel. You think they’re just going to let their flawed democracy be taken over by insane religious fascists from Iran? No. Israel will turn Iran into a sheet of glass before they let Iranian soldiers March into Jerusalem. Tens of millions of people will die.
How sad are you going to be when Middle East states start attacking Israel and the resulting humanitarian and refugee crisis results in 50,000 people dying by lunch time, day in day out, for months or years?
I bet you’ll be so sad that you won’t even be able to post TikToks about it.
Bibi really wants a war with Hezbollah, doesn’t he? I mean you can’t call it defending Israels safety anymore when you provoke any and all responses every other month with a missile here, a bomb there and now thousands of bombs everywhere. This is just another measure to keep Netanyahu in a conflict so that he doesn’t have to bear the consequences of multiple corruption cases against him and the dissolving of his coalition outside unity cases in a war. Why is Europe and the US still covering for him? What is the rest of Israel doing?
During the last month there were not 1, not 10, not 100 but 807 alerts in Israel for missile attacks. Some of them weren’t fired by Hezbollah, and some might have been the same alert in different areas, but that’s still about 7 missile PER DAY even if we assume only 1 in 4 alerts was due to an attack by Hezbollah (side note: during the entire war, about 2,000 missile were launched from Lebanon to Israel, that’s an average of about 6 per day). In addition to this, there were 452 aircraft intrusion alerts. Most of these attacks are against civilian targets.
Right now, there are about 79 thousand people (around 0.8% of total population) who are still evicted for nearly a year from northern Israel.
And just in case it needs to be said - the first attack was made by Hezbollah (on Oct. 8th) and without any provocation by Israel.
Not only is this a situation no sovereign country can stand, but it’s also a violation of the Lebanon-approved UN Security Council’s resolution 1701, that was the basis for ending the 2006 Lebanon War. Hell, just having missiles in the area is by itself a violation of the resolution.
Regarding political reasoning - A war in Lebanon is actually bad for Netanyahu. His interest is a slow-burning war so he can prolong the current situation as much as possible (once the war is over, the pubic will demand an election). In fact, that’s probably the main reason you had “a missile here and a bomb there” and not an actual war.
Hezzbollah literally shoots rockets at Israel multiple times per week. Wtf are you talking about?
He wants the US at war before the sea change. once elected or close enough to it Harris can change her tune.
This is definitely one of the most interesting attacks that’s ever happened. It certainly doesn’t look like an accident. If it was indeed Mossad: take a bow, you’ve earned it. That was a pretty slick move. That was probably a difficult op to pull off. Gotta respect the craft, even if you disagree on the method.
I wonder if you wouldve said the same thing about 9/11
9/11 targeted and killed civilians. This attack largely struck Hezbollah militants, who are in open hostilities with Israel. Doing things this way is far better than the seemingly indiscriminate bombing in Gaza.
You know not everyone in Hezbollah is a « militant » right? They have a large political party and civilian governance apparatus. This is terrorism, nothing new to Israel.
And I’m sure Islamic State and the Taliban have non-combatant elements too.
I don’t mind Israel defending against militant groups that fire rockets into Israel. I do mind them carpet-bombing civilian populations. This pager-thing seems to have the hallmarks of an operation that manages to cripple Hezbollah with a minimal loss of life and even fairly low civilian casualties. I much prefer Israel do this over the alternatives.
As does america have non-combat elements too.
The US army does indeed, and they would be valid military targets. People working for the EPA, perhaps not so much. Hezbollah however is structured towards support for the militant arm, as the Lebanese government handles civilian tasks.
Well it seems its up to the attacker to decide what is considered valid military targets. Al Qaeda viewed 9/11 as a valid military target.
Indiscriminate killing is always bad, no matter how targeted you think it is. In this case it was mass maiming, oh and a few kids died right? That’ll teach em to stop being bad people won’t it!
Iran’s ambassador to Lebanon, Mojtaba Amani, was among those injured by the pager explosions on Tuesday, Iran’s Mehr news agency reported.
Attacking ambassadors is a great way to become an international piriah.
Why did he have the pager tho?
Hezbollah is a legitimate political party in Lebanon, with millions of voters.
Political parties don’t launch rockets at neighborhoods…
Editing this again because when this story first broke I had assuming that this was a targeted attack on very specific people. I had also conflated Hezbollah and Hamas - and yes, I do know the difference, I just wasn’t paying as close attention between work, personal things, and Lemmy posting and made a mistake. And while I don’t support their attack on Hezbollah, I was still impressed with what I had assumed was a very targeted attack. But now as more information comes out, this really looks to be no different that if they had sprinkled land mines around someone’s home… sure, it might get that person, but it can also get innocent people as well, and that isn’t impressive. In summary, fuck Israel. Fuck Hamas. Fuck Hezbollah.
This goes to show that Israel could have taken out
HezbollahHamas leadership at any time… there was no need to raze Palestine other than to move people out so that Israelis can move in and rebuilt.Aren’t you confusing Hezbollah with Hamas though?
~~Shit, you’re right… thanks, I’ve corrected it because my point still stands. ~~
See above comment.
does it still stand? are Hamas using the same supply chain of altered pagers?
signs point to no.
~~Yes, it still stands… if Mossad is able to get to Hezbollah’s leadership that completely, I think they are likely more than capable of doing the same with Hamas’ leadership. ~~
See above comment
Isreal wants to start ww3!
Iran has already started it.
