• dmnknf@lemmy.ml
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    39
    arrow-down
    138
    ·
    1 year ago

    Come on, not even zelensky had any hope they would accept this peace plan. They’re basically asking Russia to stop the war and give back all the territory they occupied. The Ukrainian counter offensive stopped at a brick wall, the Russians have no reason at all to do this.

    • FaceDeer@kbin.social
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      50
      arrow-down
      10
      ·
      1 year ago

      Pretty crumbly and porous brick wall, there. And they apparently neglected to build it around Sevastopol.

    • bluGill@kbin.social
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      49
      arrow-down
      15
      ·
      1 year ago

      War is normally a slow process. In historical terms Ukraine is making good progress… it is mostly fiction where wars are one in a couple days.

        • bluGill@kbin.social
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          12
          arrow-down
          1
          ·
          1 year ago

          There have been a lot of exceptions. However the majority of wars are longer as if you don’t think you can win surrender terms are generally better than death.

        • PersnickityPenguin@lemm.ee
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          1
          ·
          1 year ago

          Sure, if you fight in the middle of the desert with little cover and no mud, progress is fast once you cut through the defensive lines. Vs fighting in mud and forests.

      • dmnknf@lemmy.ml
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        13
        arrow-down
        33
        ·
        1 year ago

        Western people are funny to say the least, i dont know why, if it has something to do if the fact u guys always lived in such a privileged position that u can live in a fantasy world.

        Try to be pragmatic. I never said it had to be quick, I never said this is unwinnable right now, I just said that makes no sense for the Russians to accept this terms right now, and Ukrainians are not stupid, they know this. Or were u expecting putin to wake up this morning feeling bad for what he have done and just move his troops out of Ukraine?

    • paddirn@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      36
      arrow-down
      4
      ·
      1 year ago

      They didn’t have any hope because Putin is a warmonger. Any “peace plan” that Russia would find acceptable would just delay the inevitable and give Russia time to build back up, they’ve already shown their cards. Russia needs to give up on its territorial aspirations and give back what it’s stolen. Russia could’ve held onto Crimea even had it just not invaded Ukraine, the rest of the world had basically turned a blind eye to it (it wasn’t right, but that was the reality), instead they get to watch their military turn to dust, just like Putin will be doing within a decade.

        • paddirn@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          4
          ·
          1 year ago

          I’m not saying that all, but facts on the ground were that, 2014–2022, Russia had control of Crimea and nobody was going to do anything about that for fear of getting into conflict with Russia. That Crimea even “passed” into Russian hands without much of a fight from the international community is probably what emboldened Putin to go after the rest of Ukraine. What I’m saying is that had he stuck to just that sort of low-level “piecemeal” approach to carving out sections of Ukraine, like what was do e with Crimea, he wouldn’t have gotten nearly the amount of international backlash that he got.

          Is Crimea part of Ukraine? Yes, but when it comes to international borders, facts on the ground are what matter in the long-run. Had Putin bided his time, eventually it would’ve just been accepted as fact. Nobody else would’ve ever cared enough to start a war over it. With Putin going for all-out-war though, he’s revealed Russia’s military weakness and facts on the ground have become mutable again, giving us the chance that we’ll hopefully see Crimea come back into Ukraine.

      • dmnknf@lemmy.ml
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        13
        arrow-down
        28
        ·
        1 year ago

        I’m not judging who is or who isn’t a warmonger or whatever, let’s just be pragmatic, it makes no sense at all for Russia to accept those terms. Were u expecting the Russian Govt. to suddenly wake up one morning feeling bad for what they’ve done and just move the troops out of Ukraine, including Crimea who’s under Russian control for over a decade now, and say “sorry, my bad”? This 10 point plan they “proposed” was only made so western media can say they’re trying to stop the war, which they aren’t. And again, I’m not saying they have to stop the war, I’m just analyzing things objectively.

        • Reality Suit@lemmy.one
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          4
          arrow-down
          4
          ·
          1 year ago

          I’m saying Putin can stop this war right now by going home. This is all Putins’ fault supported by oligarchs. It makes complete sense for putin to accept these terms, because he will eventually be forced to.

          • agarorn@feddit.de
            link
            fedilink
            arrow-up
            3
            ·
            1 year ago

            What makes you believe we will eventually be forced? Do you still think our sanctions will make Russia collapse?

          • Count042@lemmy.ml
            link
            fedilink
            arrow-up
            3
            ·
            1 year ago

            There are no oligarchs in Russia.

            Words have meanings. An oligarch is someone who has political power through wealth.

            Russia is an autocracy, and Putin allows people to be rich, so long as they don’t try to translate that into political power.

            America has oligarchs, Russia just has rich people that contribute to an autocracy.

            … I’m honestly not sure which is more evil as a political system.

    • KevonLooney@lemm.ee
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      37
      arrow-down
      11
      ·
      1 year ago

      The counteroffensive is moving forward slowly because the Russians put a ton of mines and trenches in the way. Plus they committed their best troops to stopping it. Still Ukraine is slowly moving forward in the south.

      I wouldn’t want to be there right now on either side. But basically the Ukrainians are winning because their artillery is better. Once Ukraine moves their artillery within range of the highway along the Sea of Azov, the troops protecting Crimea will have their supplies threatened. This is the general plan and they’re getting closer.

      • dmnknf@lemmy.ml
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        6
        arrow-down
        16
        ·
        1 year ago

        I never said this in unwinnable, but don’t make any sense to propose a peace plan to Russia right now demanding them to return all the land they occupied. Ukrainians are not dumb, they know this, this peace “proposal” is just a piece of propaganda to western media to say they are trying to start peace talks with Russia or some shit. The Russian ministry answered this out of anger but he’s not wrong, the Ukraine is only getting their territory back if they can put a huge pressure on Russians, possibly only if they can manage to make Russia fear to be attacked on their own territory. And even if this happens we have to trust Russians won’t nuke Ukraine to protect their own territory.

      • Thorny_Thicket@sopuli.xyz
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        9
        arrow-down
        3
        ·
        1 year ago

        Source

        They’re making slow progress constantly but the front lines are barely moving. There’s obviously a chance for a big break through as the first defences are always the heaviest and it should get easier after that, but there’s still a long way to go, and they’re both taking heavy casualties every single day.

        • Addfwyn@lemmygrad.ml
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          6
          arrow-down
          6
          ·
          1 year ago

          There’s obviously a chance for a big break through as the first defences are always the heaviest and it should get easier after that

          That’s the opposite of Russia’s defensive doctrine, which would only be exacerbated further by the ability to deploy reserves where necessary. It could be a different story if Ukraine wasn’t having to commit their exploitation forces just to try to reach the first lines of defense; even if they break through tomorrow they won’t really have the manpower to do anything with it.

        • ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆@lemmy.ml
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          10
          arrow-down
          14
          ·
          1 year ago

          The only actual progress being made is in destroying the equipment NATO managed to cobble together and losing trained manpower. Even if a miracle happened and Ukraine managed to make some breakthrough, what exactly is it going to be consolidated with given that they spent past three and a half months beating their head against a wall. They’ve already thrown in all the reserve brigades that were originally meant to come in and consolidate the gains now.

    • yata@sh.itjust.works
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      20
      arrow-down
      14
      ·
      1 year ago

      The Ukrainian counter offensive stopped at a brick wall

      What a bunch of Putin propagandistic nonsense.

    • jcit878@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      19
      arrow-down
      14
      ·
      1 year ago

      holy shit stop invading and leave? OUTRAGEOUS! the nerve of zelensky to ask for what is Ukraine’s! I think you should go join the trenches to show how mad you are!

      • shalafi@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        3
        ·
        1 year ago

        Zelensky knowing that there wasn’t a hope in hell of Russians accepting this is false? You know it, I know it, we all know it. It’s just politics. Of course Zelensky has to offer something, even if he knows they won’t bite.

        The Russians have to claw something out of this debacle to sue for peace. And I hope the Ukrainians give them nothing, and take back the Crimea while they’re at it.

      • Enkrod@feddit.de
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        8
        arrow-down
        9
        ·
        1 year ago

        No, see when he says “a fairer distribution of global benefits” that needs to start with distributing ukrainian benefits to russian oligarchs obviously!

      • Groucho_the_grouch@lemmygrad.ml
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        2
        arrow-down
        6
        ·
        edit-2
        1 year ago

        Why do you want to force the people of Crimea and the Donbas to be subjected to a government that they despise? Why don’t those people have any right to self determination?

        • jcit878@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          4
          arrow-down
          2
          ·
          1 year ago

          they can move to the shithole that is russia if they want to live under a shit government

            • jcit878@lemmy.world
              link
              fedilink
              arrow-up
              3
              arrow-down
              3
              ·
              edit-2
              1 year ago

              you mean like the Uyghurs? genocide is really fucked, what are you doing about the Uyghurs?

              edit: no-one is forcing russian simps in Crimea to move anywhere you absolute nonce, they can live free under ukraine or go suck balls in russia if thats what they want

                • jcit878@lemmy.world
                  link
                  fedilink
                  arrow-up
                  2
                  arrow-down
                  2
                  ·
                  edit-2
                  1 year ago

                  the ukranian military were bombing civilians? please, lets see a non-cooker source.

                  Also i love you mention 2014, i wonder what relevant action happened then that made the whole area a shitstorm? i dunno, must just be a coincidence, surely nothing to do with the incompetant half-strength military staffed by drunk conscripts that has been shooting rockets at hospitals and malls for the past 18 months

                  edit: also respond to the Uyghur situation. by default you are condoning genocide

    • utopianfiat@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      2
      arrow-down
      2
      ·
      1 year ago

      They’re basically asking Russia to stop the war and give back all the territory they occupied.

      Yes.

    • Reality Suit@lemmy.one
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      3
      arrow-down
      10
      ·
      1 year ago

      I mean, if Putin doesn’t want to die, he can always gobtje fuck home. I mean he can still suck a bag of dicks and then choke on them.