In general I just refuse to subscribe to this narrative that voters can be treated like wild animals and that you should never expect even self-preservation because: Democrat bad.
If Bernie were on the ballot this time around he would’ve lost and he might have even back then. Voters and society are trash. And it’s not even necessarily their fault if you zoom out far enough but it’s fucking true.
No kidding Bernie is 83 years old now. It’s like saying Jimmy Carter would have lost!
The problem is that Democrats doesn’t push new younger candidates, with new ideas, they don’t even have to be that new, as long as they aren’t decidedly obsolete.
But the main problem remains that a 2 party system is merely one party better than China.
Many Americans seem to not grasp the truth in that.
You should try criticizing the democratic party without making a point to say that people are right to vote against them. In that case I would potentially be able to converse with you.
without making a point to say that people are right to vote against them
I didn’t do that, I’d NEVER claim anyone is right to vote for Trump. It’s only that the democrats failed to create any enthusiasm at all, and they’ve had decades to try to improve democracy in USA, and has done nothing.
Democrats have been happy with the status quo for decades, so they don’t inspire enthusiasm.
Also I’ll criticize democrats as much as I want. The best thing about them is that they are not sociopaths like the republicans, but that’s a fucking low bar, and still they failed!!!
Also, you seem to think I’m trying to say you can’t criticize. I said I would be able to talk to you if your criticism was to my standard of fairness. In the same vein of blaming Democrats for not inspiring people to give enough of a shit to vote, I also think it’s not fair to say Democrats have done “nothing”.
They have tried to do things, arguably half assed but attempts were made, countered by the GOP every step of the way. You can’t just magically change everything if you’re a political party, and that goes especially for changing the overall attitude of millions of people. These are people who display repeatedly that they are receptive to the right wing talking points.
Those talking points play directly on their base instinct fears. It’s quite ridiculous to me to suggest that if only Democrats were different could we suddenly reverse all that fear based propaganda. This country is way more conservative than I ever wanted to believe. If it wasn’t, Trump couldn’t have ever won. Because as powerful as all that propaganda is, it wouldn’t work on people were at all informed or who had a leftist bone in their body.
Your standard of fairness is skewed, possibly because of a lifetime of privilege, or maybe you think you are only temporarily inconvenienced?
Fairness was completely thrown out the window, when Republicans chose Trump as their presidential candidate 3 times!
You intentionally miss the point. When we disillusion voters ourselves by claiming the only supportable option isn’t worth supporting, we not only lose our right to claim voters aren’t responsible for anything, we tear at the fabric of society that we claim to want to support.
Seems like you dont think you cant pressure any dem candidate into any sort of position at all – especially before a primary. Part of the problem these past few elections is the DNC hasnt been running fair, timely and open primaries. We all saw what they did to Bernie Sanders in 2016 as well, and the outcome of the lawsuit after that. The DNC said in court they could pick the candidate in a smoke filled back room if they wanted, and they had no responsibility to run a fair primary as they are a privately owned corporation. Anything about fairness was simply marketing that couldnt be interpretted legally. And by coincidence, their manipulations continued and they keep losing voters.
I never said that during campaigns, there’s a difference between saying it now, when there’s no election, and saying it during election.
During election I pointed out the benefits of voting democrat.
You apparently can’t distinguish between reflection and campaign.
Your message is simply the wrong message at the wrong time.
They’ll happily make the same choice again too, even as the country burns down around us. The left wont support war crimes no matter what gun you try to hold to their head. And the dem party cant win anything without them. What to do…
Abandon AIPAC funding? nooo, that crazy! cant do that, right?
How do you figure that? When what I criticize is the lack of political action and ambition by the democrats when facing Trump.
As an example Pelosy was a menace for blocking actions against Trump, at his last presidency, there’s a long list of lack of doing anything, even when it’s desperately needed!!
This is not on the left, they have been screaming that more needs to be done, that the democratic party lacks ambition. How the fuck is it their fault?
The problem is that democracy in USA is dysfunctional, and Democrats are absolutely part of that problem.
That has nothing to do with saying they are the same, because obviously democrats were the lesser evil, and obviously everybody should have turned up to vote. But the reason they didn’t, was that democrats didn’t give them a good enough reason to do so, backing an 80 year old relic for most of the campaign.
I actually tried to get people to see why it was important to vote Biden instead of Trump, but people simply didn’t care.
So what do YOU think should have been done differently, because Biden would have lost even worse than Harris. How is it not the fault of democrats that they didn’t manage to get their presidential candidate elected over an evil sociopathic liar like Trump?
And how is it wrong to reflect over it, and point it out?
Democrats are part of the problem, yes. I wrote them a really angry letter, that I’m sure never was read, on the day after election day.
What’s up for dispute here is that I think “leftists” who refused to vote are largely to blame for this specific situation we’re in now. They didn’t care and here we are. You seem to understand those people’s perspectives and put all blame on the party which I find absurd. It’s a common attitude on this platform and it’s an incorrect reading of reality.
Imagine how bad they see the democrats to be, when the democratic voters simply failed to show up!
If they think Democrats are no better than republicans, they kind of have a point. Harris had nice ideas about helping people buy a house, but how the fuck does that help the homeless or others that are REALLY struggling, way beyond the ability to buy a house?
If you can buy a house with a little help, you are not struggling to survive. Democrats are not there for the poor. There is very little idealism left in American politics, it’s been squashed by 2 majority parties that monopolize politics.
That’s not a fault of the poor, or the leftists that want real improvements, maybe like the Scandinavian model. AOC has explained this again and again, but democrats still pander to the right, because they are more in favor of wall street than helping the poor.
Some of those people voted for Trump, in part because they are stupid, but also in part to bring the pain to others too.
That’s what you get with a dysfunctional democracy, and PLEASE tell me again how that isn’t also a problem with the democrats???
In general I just refuse to subscribe to this narrative that voters can be treated like wild animals and that you should never expect even self-preservation because: Democrat bad.
If Bernie were on the ballot this time around he would’ve lost and he might have even back then. Voters and society are trash. And it’s not even necessarily their fault if you zoom out far enough but it’s fucking true.
No kidding Bernie is 83 years old now. It’s like saying Jimmy Carter would have lost!
The problem is that Democrats doesn’t push new younger candidates, with new ideas, they don’t even have to be that new, as long as they aren’t decidedly obsolete.
But the main problem remains that a 2 party system is merely one party better than China.
Many Americans seem to not grasp the truth in that.
You should try criticizing the democratic party without making a point to say that people are right to vote against them. In that case I would potentially be able to converse with you.
I didn’t do that, I’d NEVER claim anyone is right to vote for Trump. It’s only that the democrats failed to create any enthusiasm at all, and they’ve had decades to try to improve democracy in USA, and has done nothing.
Democrats have been happy with the status quo for decades, so they don’t inspire enthusiasm.
Also I’ll criticize democrats as much as I want. The best thing about them is that they are not sociopaths like the republicans, but that’s a fucking low bar, and still they failed!!!
Also, you seem to think I’m trying to say you can’t criticize. I said I would be able to talk to you if your criticism was to my standard of fairness. In the same vein of blaming Democrats for not inspiring people to give enough of a shit to vote, I also think it’s not fair to say Democrats have done “nothing”.
They have tried to do things, arguably half assed but attempts were made, countered by the GOP every step of the way. You can’t just magically change everything if you’re a political party, and that goes especially for changing the overall attitude of millions of people. These are people who display repeatedly that they are receptive to the right wing talking points.
Those talking points play directly on their base instinct fears. It’s quite ridiculous to me to suggest that if only Democrats were different could we suddenly reverse all that fear based propaganda. This country is way more conservative than I ever wanted to believe. If it wasn’t, Trump couldn’t have ever won. Because as powerful as all that propaganda is, it wouldn’t work on people were at all informed or who had a leftist bone in their body.
Your standard of fairness is skewed, possibly because of a lifetime of privilege, or maybe you think you are only temporarily inconvenienced?
Fairness was completely thrown out the window, when Republicans chose Trump as their presidential candidate 3 times!
You intentionally miss the point. When we disillusion voters ourselves by claiming the only supportable option isn’t worth supporting, we not only lose our right to claim voters aren’t responsible for anything, we tear at the fabric of society that we claim to want to support.
Seems like you dont think you cant pressure any dem candidate into any sort of position at all – especially before a primary. Part of the problem these past few elections is the DNC hasnt been running fair, timely and open primaries. We all saw what they did to Bernie Sanders in 2016 as well, and the outcome of the lawsuit after that. The DNC said in court they could pick the candidate in a smoke filled back room if they wanted, and they had no responsibility to run a fair primary as they are a privately owned corporation. Anything about fairness was simply marketing that couldnt be interpretted legally. And by coincidence, their manipulations continued and they keep losing voters.
https://medium.com/theyoungturks/dnc-we-can-legally-choose-candidate-over-cigars-in-back-room-e3026730e252 https://observer.com/2017/05/dnc-lawsuit-presidential-primaries-bernie-sanders-supporters/
I never said that during campaigns, there’s a difference between saying it now, when there’s no election, and saying it during election.
During election I pointed out the benefits of voting democrat.
You apparently can’t distinguish between reflection and campaign.
Your message is simply the wrong message at the wrong time.
But you’ve forgotten something crucial: for the BlueMAGA faithful, it is always ‘during election’. Only two years to midterm, after all.
You were dismissive of “disillusioned leftists” which are just as bad as a trump voters. They made a choice to not help a damned thing
They’ll happily make the same choice again too, even as the country burns down around us. The left wont support war crimes no matter what gun you try to hold to their head. And the dem party cant win anything without them. What to do…
Abandon AIPAC funding? nooo, that crazy! cant do that, right?
You supported worse war crimes and pretended to be superior for it. This conversation is over with the stupid non-starter.
what are these “worse war crimes” you pretend exist?
The worst thing I’ve done is reply to your comments.
How do you figure that? When what I criticize is the lack of political action and ambition by the democrats when facing Trump.
As an example Pelosy was a menace for blocking actions against Trump, at his last presidency, there’s a long list of lack of doing anything, even when it’s desperately needed!!
This is not on the left, they have been screaming that more needs to be done, that the democratic party lacks ambition. How the fuck is it their fault?
The problem is that democracy in USA is dysfunctional, and Democrats are absolutely part of that problem.
That has nothing to do with saying they are the same, because obviously democrats were the lesser evil, and obviously everybody should have turned up to vote. But the reason they didn’t, was that democrats didn’t give them a good enough reason to do so, backing an 80 year old relic for most of the campaign.
I actually tried to get people to see why it was important to vote Biden instead of Trump, but people simply didn’t care.
So what do YOU think should have been done differently, because Biden would have lost even worse than Harris. How is it not the fault of democrats that they didn’t manage to get their presidential candidate elected over an evil sociopathic liar like Trump?
And how is it wrong to reflect over it, and point it out?
Democrats are part of the problem, yes. I wrote them a really angry letter, that I’m sure never was read, on the day after election day.
What’s up for dispute here is that I think “leftists” who refused to vote are largely to blame for this specific situation we’re in now. They didn’t care and here we are. You seem to understand those people’s perspectives and put all blame on the party which I find absurd. It’s a common attitude on this platform and it’s an incorrect reading of reality.
“Blame” doesnt matter. And the DNC cant win an election without the left. Its just math.
You’re one of those “no true scotsman” types when it comes to the label “the left” so please go away.
Imagine how bad they see the democrats to be, when the democratic voters simply failed to show up!
If they think Democrats are no better than republicans, they kind of have a point. Harris had nice ideas about helping people buy a house, but how the fuck does that help the homeless or others that are REALLY struggling, way beyond the ability to buy a house?
If you can buy a house with a little help, you are not struggling to survive. Democrats are not there for the poor. There is very little idealism left in American politics, it’s been squashed by 2 majority parties that monopolize politics.
That’s not a fault of the poor, or the leftists that want real improvements, maybe like the Scandinavian model. AOC has explained this again and again, but democrats still pander to the right, because they are more in favor of wall street than helping the poor.
Some of those people voted for Trump, in part because they are stupid, but also in part to bring the pain to others too.
That’s what you get with a dysfunctional democracy, and PLEASE tell me again how that isn’t also a problem with the democrats???
I stopped reading when you reinforced voters being not responsible for their votes.