His win is a direct result of the Supreme Court’s decision in a pivotal LGBTQ+ rights case.
As one of the LGBT, I’m fine with this. I want the ability to refuse work to the Religious and Republicans—and I have done so for decades. The difference is, I don’t tell them why. I just say I’m busy. Because even though I want them to burn in a fiery hell, I’m not an asshole.
While religion is a protected class, political orientation is not protected. It is perfectly legal (and moral) to ask someone if they are conservative before agreeing to do work for them.
You can even cite a policy to really drive it home: “I do not conduct business with racists, bigots, misogynists, homophobes, xenophobes, fascists or any other type of conservatives.”
Some asshole lawyer will eventually win the argument that religiosity and conservatism are commutative.
And tbh, they’ll be right.
Nope. Conservatism is a political affiliation. Will always be before the eyes of the U.S. law*
*Unless the fucking SCOTUS fucks things up again.
Sure, just look at Trump supporters they are a cult, so maybe they can get a religious protection.
Cool but where do you draw the line? If a taxi driver refuses to drive you is it still fine? What if a teacher refuses to teach your children? Or if a doctor refuses to treat you?
Taxi? I mean, I guess? If I was a taxi driver and a bunch of people from the Westboro Baptist Church tried to get into my cab, I’d speed off for sure.
Teacher? Hmm. Well, they can try. But, humorously, it’s just like a “conservative” to deny a child an education. It’s all about the kids right? Trash.
Doctor? No. They are governed by rules that prevent that.
Ok, so let’s hope that the supreme court agrees with you and draws the line at taxi drivers. Because today they let photographers discriminate you and tomorrow they can decide that the rules for doctors are unconstitutional.
Do you really want a doctor treat you who despises you? Can you still trust them to do their best?
The real problem lies deeper than this.
So where you live doctors just let people suffer/die if they don’t like them and it’s ok? You don’t have any oversight, expert panels, ethics boards, investigations? That’s wild.
I think it depends if you are a contractor or an employee. A contractor like a cab driver or photographer sure they can refuse clients, but a teacher and Dr are both employees of a school district and insurance company who have a public image to uphold.
I can tell you one thing: wedding photography is not where to draw the line.
Edit: come to think of it, you’re right, though. Businesses should serve all people, especially protected classes. Don’t want to deal with it? Don’t start a business.
I don’t know what the person you’re replying to does for work, but I feel like what their work is really makes a big difference. Teachers don’t (or shouldn’t) teach kids any differently based on orientation, political ideology, etc., other than perhaps excusing them from work that goes against their beliefs (for example celebrating a holiday they take objection to). The teacher isn’t required to “go against their beliefs” and do something they disagree with, only to keep their mouth shut about any disagreements they may have with a student’s lifestyle. A teacher should not be able to refuse to teach anyone because they are not being asked to do a special job catering to any particular student. If they disagree with the curriculum, I would guess they just shouldn’t be a teacher then (as in, if you’re a high school science teacher you may be required to teach evolution).
Similarly with a doctor, they should not be able to say “I refuse to treat you because you’re gay/religious/political.” Everyone gets the same medical care. The only exception I can think of is transgender medical care, but if they don’t want to do that they can just not go into that field.
Anything that involves creating is a little different. A wedding photographer would be more actively participating in a gay wedding. Or a Christian wedding, etc. If they feel really uncomfortable with that, they shouldn’t have to. That doesn’t change my opinion that they’re closed-minded and bigoted, and it doesn’t mean people can’t leave them bad reviews stating as much. Plus, these services are not basic rights, whereas healthcare and education are basic rights.
Probably the teacher. I’d support law brought in that public service jobs i.e. medicine, education, government etc must serve all but surely that’s already law in the sense of discrimination?
But people offering a taxi ride, photography etc? They can tell you to fuck off for the simple reason of not liking your voice on the phone or the look of your face. Why does the world insist on this delusion of forced love and happiness? And it’s ironic as they are upset they can’t have access to X so want to upset the person providing X and force them to provide it to people they don’t want to?
Insanity.
The world is a mean place, always has been, always will be.
Do you think it’s a good world if someone, say, can’t use the nearest small grocery store or has a 50/50 chance that any given taxi will refuse to serve them, leaving them stranded for longer and regularly late as a result? All because maybe they look gay or trans or Muslim or whatever the right wing media is currently drumming up fear towards?
Your comment is about the perspective of the person providing the service, but what about the people being affected by the discrimination (who are often more vulnerable in the first place)? Do you not care about their experience? Their ability to experience the same quality of life as everyone else?
And sure, the world is a mean place, but why defend that? Why not try to make it at least a little bit better?
Yes
I guess if it’s contract work. In a teacher’s case all the kids pay for his service combined and he workdls for the school not the kids directly, I guess. And a taxi driver can refuse to drive you, and some of them have to people who act racists towards them or act like karens in a few videos I’ve seen.
Removed by mod
I disagree with him, and I think he’s bigoted. But I don’t think anyone has the right to his labor and that he should be legally forced to photograph things that he doesn’t want to photograph. And it’s not like photography is a business that anyone can corner the market of in a small town or anything like that, all you need is a camera. It’s the most common side hustle I see people try.
And how do you differentiate between this and say, a shop, or a doctor? Do LGBT people not “have the right to the labour” of those services?
I disagree with that framing entirely. But I’m curious to know how you would differentiate.
I’d say it’s the business model.
Not defending the practices or arguing in defense of bigotry, just offering an explanation.
If it’s a business model like a store where you come in and buy things with prices on them, that’s open to everyone equally.
If it’s a business where you sit down individually with each client and work out custom goods and services and pricing, then it’s less “owner sells things” and more “clients contract owner for XYZ”, and at that point, I’d tend to agree that it’s a two way street, that both parties must agree to terms.
At that point, both sides have the option to simply not agree and not enter into a contract, for any reason. Just because one may disagree with one party’s decision to not enter that agreement doesn’t mean they shouldn’t have that option.
What if it was a photographer who didn’t want to be hired to photograph a Trump rally, a pro-life protest, or something else they felt strongly against like a (peaceful, lawful) far right event?
I don’t think in those cases that a photographer should have no choice because the organizers are paying the money, so likewise, in this case, I don’t feel like it’s fair to force the photographer to cover an event they have a strong moral objection to, simply because that’s their business.
Again, I’m not arguing that I agree with the photographer or that their position isn’t bigoted, just offering a distinction.
I think your comment can be summed up more succinctly with “independent contractors have more discretion to choose their clients or projects than businesses that serve the public.” And I agree with you
But why
For the same reason that I don’t believe gay couples should be legally forced to accept services from a MAGA photographer. A private contract in this situation is just that, a contract. Both parties have the power to set whatever terms and conditions that they want.
For example, imagine a black couple wanted a photographer for a family event and said something along the lines of “we’d like to support members of the black community by hiring an independent black photographer.” If a white photographer saw this and sued, everyone would (rightfully) react negatively to him trying to force a private party to break the conditions they set for their private contract.
But a MAGA supporter is not the same characteristic as being LGQTB. They are not equivalent. Some countries have protected classes which I think is best. Political affiliation is not protected. Sexual orientation is. A protected class is saying that infringing the freedoms of others based on these characteristics is a great threat to freedom. The country needs to explicitly state it won’t tolerate it, because it will erode the freedom far greater than not allowing it. You can discriminate against someone based on choices they make, but not on inherent characteristics they have.
Likewise saying you are hiring a black photographer isn’t the same as saying you’re not hiring a white photographer. The distinction is important. You’re not saying you exclude a person based on an inherent/protected characteristic. The exclusion can be inferred but it doesn’t actually mean the exclusion exists. You can say you will hire a black photographer does not mean you won’t consider or hire any other. But saying you will not hire a white photographer does concretely state your exclusion which shouldn’t be a factor in business in any free Democratic country.
I would think this is a choice that doesn’t have a right answer. All choices suck. You infringe on someone regardless of choice. But saying that I think the choice with least harm is choosing to have protected classes that can’t be infringed on vs allowing people to disallow people access to services based on these protected classes. I would prefer a person who feels they will infringe on those rights to not choose to be in the market offering services where they can discriminate based on sex, race, sexual orientation or other traits that should be protected. But if they feel they don’t want to serve plumbers or Democrats or movie producers all the power to them
Religion is a protected class.
I’m not saying I disagree with your position, but being a Trump supporter or anti-choice is a choice, whereas being LGBTQ isn’t, so the comparison isn’t of equal demographic descriptors.
I disagree with your appraisal but as an example that splits your uprights: let’s say the photographer in question is a member of a demographic that is or was persecuted in some way and those trying to hire them are members of the persecuting demographic.
A Ukrainian photographer being asked to cover a family event for a family of Russians. Even if nobody involved has anything to do with the war, the situation could very likely make the photographer uncomfortable, and I don’t think that most people would fault the photographer for passing on the opportunity.
A black photographer being asked to cover a wedding being held on the grounds of a former Southern plantation is another case where I feel that the photographer would be understandably uncomfortable and the photographer would be completely justified in declining.
Even something like, say, an artist who is the daughter of Filipino parents who were subjected to horrific treatment during the japanese occupation during ww2, and now she’s being approached by a Japanese patron to commission her for a piece. While there’s a good chance that the artist may not be affected by her family’s history and be able to create the commission without any issue, I also feel that if that’s not the case, and the dynamic makes her uncomfortable, she would be completely within her rights to simply decline.
There’s even the possibility of the effects of real trauma being unjustly applied: the black photographer who was assaulted by a white person and now simply doesn’t want to work events for white people (or vice versa). The female SA victim who won’t work with men.
Simply flipping the party who has a condition they can’t change seems (to me at least) to change the dynamic. Having non-choice conditions on both sides changes the dynamic even more.
As such, I feel that the only fair situation is one in which the business contact is understood to be a two party contract, with both sides having full agency over their decision about whether to enter into the agreement for any reason. It’s different when it’s like a shop owner or something, where the entire transaction takes a minute and the goods and services they provide are open to the public in general.
But in the cases I’m talking about, I see the business models and getting comparable to valves or switches in a system. Some valves are “always open” except in specific circumstances: the main water valve, the valve from the pipes into your toilet tank, etc. and they’re just left open outside of specific special circumstances. Others are “always closed” outside of special circumstances: the bypass for a filter, or a drainage valve, or even the knobs on the sink which are only open when you’re actually using it. I see storefronts as “always open” valves, providing their services to the public in general unless they’re closed. In contrast, contract workers are “always closed” valves, not working by default, and their valve of work only opens when they agree to it. And in that business model, they should be free to keep that valve closed for any reason, regardless of whether it’s a good or shitty reason to anyone else.
While you or I may not particularly like or approve of one party or the other’s reasoning for opting out of a contract, I do believe it should be their decision.
Did you respond to the wrong comment? If not, you read a lot into what little I said and much I wouldn’t have said, had I said more.
If it’s a business where you sit down individually with each client and work out custom goods and services and pricing, then it’s less “owner sells things” and more “clients contract owner for XYZ”, and at that point, I’d tend to agree that it’s a two way street, that both parties must agree to terms.
Healthcare falls into this quite easily.
This isn’t about defining a business model. It’s about defining discrimination and protected groups. By your logic above, the photographer could charge a black couple more than a white one. I know that’s not what you mean, but it would be the potential result of how that law would be interpreted.
At the end of the day, a Trump rally is not a protected group, so a business can say no. Just like a shop proprietor can refuse business to said rally goers, but not to a protected group.
By your logic above, the photographer could charge a black couple more than a white one. I know that’s not what you mean, but it would be the potential result of how that law would be interpreted.
No that is part of what I mean. And it is about defining a business model.
They absolutely could do that. You and I may not like that, but they should absolutely have the discretion to do that, when they’re negotiating individual terms with individual clients.
If the photographer was a black woman who’d been sexually assaulted by a white male police officer, should she be legally compelled to provide her services to a retirement party for a white male police chief, regardless of whether or causes her significant trauma?
What if instead it’s someone who was raised Catholic then eventually left the church with some hard feelings when they married an atheist…and now they’re being asked by the church to cover a fundraiser event the church is putting on? Or even just a Catholic family having a confirmation or something and they want the photographer to document the occasion?
I’m not saying that I personally wouldn’t do these events or that I feel the person’s objection may be legitimate or not, my point is that it doesn’t matter what I think, and that a freelancer should always have the right to not enter into a contract for any reason. Sure, that freedom could be used in ways that allow them to express their bigotry, but I feel that’s a possibility which is an acceptable cost/risk in return for the freedom of these freelancers to choose how to do business.
Just my opinion and you’re free to disagree!
They absolutely could do that. You and I may not like that, but they should absolutely have the discretion to do that, when they’re negotiating individual terms with individual clients.
No, they can’t. They cannot simply because they are a protected class. If there other reasons, they can.
If the photographer was a black woman who’d been sexually assaulted by a white male police officer, should she be legally compelled to provide her services to a retirement party for a white male police chief, regardless of whether or causes her significant trauma?
Not because he is white. But yes because he is a police chief, or just about any other reason.
What if instead it’s someone who was raised Catholic then eventually left the church with some hard feelings when they married an atheist…and now they’re being asked by the church to cover a fundraiser event the church is putting on? Or even just a Catholic family having a confirmation or something and they want the photographer to document the occasion?
She could decline because its a church, a business, but not because a client has a religion.
… my point is that it doesn’t matter what I think, and that a freelancer should always have the right to not enter into a contract for any reason. Sure, that freedom could be used in ways that allow them to express their bigotry, but I feel that’s a possibility which is an acceptable cost/risk in return for the freedom of these freelancers to choose how to do business.
The rest of the paragraph is what you think. It is not what the majority think, and that is why laws exist as they do, because the majority voted for them.
Just my opinion and you’re free to disagree!
I do disagree, and so does the law, excluding OPs post and thus why this is relevant and important to understand. You’re still trying to frame this as a business model, but it’s about protected classes.
So I agree with you, but food for thought as I was mulling this over: what about someone building a deck? I shouldn’t discriminate who I build a deck for based on color or orientationn because building that deck doesn’t expose me to anything I object to (I’m using “I” universally here - I’m queer positive and don’t build decks). But like if I’m a boudoir photographer who is squicked by queer sexuality I ought to be able to decline a shoot.
So I don’t know that the line is just a one on one service. That’s not quite there, but it’s close. I recognize the need to protect folks from being forced to witness or participate in things they object to, but I also recognize the need to protect minority groups from being excluded from the benefits of society.
I also think it would do people good to get over themselves and be exposed to things they find uncomfortable and grow as a person, but I recognize that isn’t anything that can be forced on someone.
Yeah I agree that it doesn’t seem to be a firm hard line, but maybe that’s a good thing. And honestly, to me it’s one of those things that, from a purely economic standpoint, it’s just opening up that opportunity to competitors.
So you don’t wanna photo gay weddings? That’s cool, someone else will.
Gig worker versus someone providing a service to the general public. A wedding photographer is not on the job until you both accept the terms and sign a contract.
Besides, do you really want a wedding photographer that doesn’t want to be there and has to be legally forced?
I’d say anything that could be considered as creative, and isn’t necessary for life.
That said, I’d rather non-essential creatives be allowed to discriminate. Who wants a closeted homophobe photographing their wedding? I’d rather a non-professional friend do it with their cell phone.
Should they also be allowed to have a whites only business? Because I’m pretty sure they legally can’t discriminate that way. It’s only okay if someone is LGBT+.
No. But he should be able to reject creating something that says “whites only” or “straights only”.
Example:
Denying a “white power” photo session - should be legal
Denying taking senior photos because the client is white - should not be legal
Denying professional headshots because the client is gay - should not be legal
Denying a “gay pride” photo session - should be legal (though you’re an asshole if you do it IMO)
But the thing is, don’t even give a reason. You don’t have to take every job, and you don’t have to say why. If you make the stand to not take a certain job because of political reasons, you are bringing negative attention on yourself
The difference is in the business model.
If they’re working individual jobs on a freelance, case by case, contract-based model, then they can do whatever they want as far as signing a contract to do work or not signing a contract to do work with whomever they wish.
The reasons might be shitty sometimes, but that’s not enough of a reason to compel all freelancers to do work they don’t want to.
Are you actually claiming that as long as you’re freelance, you can discriminate against people by race?
I’m saying you don’t have to sign any contract you don’t want to sign with anyone for any reason.
Any reason including “I don’t work with black people?” Are you sure about that?
I don’t think you understood what I said.
So you’re saying minorities don’t have a right to anything but the bare essentials?
Or are you saying the right of bigoted business owners to discriminate trumps the right of individuals to be treated equally?
I don’t think you understood what I said.
Is mixing a drink creative?
Is hairstyling creative?
Is designing landscapes creative?
Is putting shingles on a house creative?
Is doing electrical work creative?
What type of work that requires some level of skill and design specific to the project not creative?
Why don’t minorities deserve the right to hire the same businesses as everyone else?
I don’t think you understood what I said.
I’d say anything that could be considered as creative
This is basically how it’s handled. In the Masterpiece Cake case it wasn’t about selling the couple “just” a cake. If they’d wanted one out of the case the Shop was legally required to sell them one. They wanted a custom cake and that falls under “creative” which changes the rules.
The United States has long held that artistic expression, basically creative work, is protected under the 1st Amendment as a type of speech and the Government cannot compel speech without extreme need and even then it can only do it narrowly and temporarily.
What we really have with these is a collision between individual rights. Is it fair for the Government to abrogate the 1st Amendment Right of one person by compelling them to speak (create art) in order to satisfy the 14th Amendment Right of another person?
It may seem obvious but consider the controversy around Piss Christ. It was art and was thus subject to 1st Amendment protections and without those protections it would have been removed.
So not allowing art, creative work, 1st Amendment Protections would cause a pile of other problems. There is no perfect solutions when rights collide, there are only trade-offs.
Yes. I mean… if someone thinks it’s okay to force a minority to create racist content, their opinion isn’t worth a reply. And logically, that’s essentially what is being said when someone wants to force someone to create to spec something they don’t agree with.
Thank you for that great explanation!
Take something you strongly disagree with. Let’s say a certain political party and their agenda. Republicans, Democrats, Nazis, a radical independent, doesn’t matter what, just one you disagree with.
You’ve decided to provide a private service as an individual. Let’s say, event planning.
A political party approaches you to host their biggest rally yet. On enquiring, what it’s about, you find out it’s the one you disagree with.
Should you be made to? Are you denying rights by declining your services to them, or are you exercising your own by choosing to stand by your beliefs?
Your beliefs will of course outrage some people that have opposing ones, but they are yours and they should be protected no matter what they are or how wild or somber they are. It is only when you actively start harming people or directly denying human rights is when it becomes an issue… But you host events, you don’t control water, shelter, justice, health, or food to societies. So unless that’s somehow happening—and boy would that have been a regulatory fuck up—you have the freedom to not host events for things that go against what you believe, and we protect that even if people disagree with them.
You can’t make someone do things against their beliefs, just as you wouldn’t want to be made to do things against your own. That’s called hypocrisy and double standards. We respect this by disagreeing with someone’s beliefs, but we don’t strip them from people and force our own on them, just because we disagree.
You can’t make someone do things against their beliefs, just as you wouldn’t want to be made to do things against your own.
In the US, the civil rights legislation forces racists to serve black people and that is great.
There is a fundamental difference between immutable traits, such as race, gender, sexuality, and physical ability, and political beliefs. So your comparison to “something you strongly disagree with” is not fitting analogy.
Your beliefs will of course outrage some people that have opposing ones, but they are yours and they should be protected no matter what they are or how wild or somber they are.
We aren’t talking about “beliefs”. We’re talking about actions. Discrimination is an action.
It is only when you actively start harming people or directly denying human rights is when it becomes an issue…
And denying people goods and services based on who they are is harming them. So it is an issue.
You can’t make someone do things against their beliefs, just as you wouldn’t want to be made to do things against your own.
We can and we do, all the time. That’s part of living in society.
The thing’s you say are very authoritarian. The disregard for individual thoughts and freedoms is honestly scary. You can’t even differentiate private venture with public service. I suspect you discriminate against others all of the time, but it’s fine since it’s coming from you and your side of things, never questioning if you’re the bad person or not.
It slowly gets worse and worse each time you type. That last part is just flat out disgusting to say.
The Handmaiden’s Tale didn’t get 8.4 on iMDB because people can’t wait for that future enough.
Being a member of a protected class is not some kind of trump card you can play to get whatever you want from whomever you want it.
Let’s say that this Nazi here is gay and getting married to this Nazi here. They roll into one of these fine bakeries in New York and demand a custom cake in the shape of Hitler standing on a base that says “Blood and Soil” with little red fondant swastikas between each letter.
For a wedding venue they’d like to have this excellent location and catering company.
They also need a wedding photographer and their Hitler Themed wedding has a 7’ tall statute of the guy standing underneath a banner that says “Arbeit Macht Frei” and they really want a shot of the two of them standing next to that statue in their finest Hugo Boss tuxedo’s while they both kiss Hitler’s cheeks. They plan to stop by Stak Studios tomorrow and talk to them about it.
And denying people goods and services based on who they are is harming them.
How are you feeling about your statement right now?
Being a member of a protected class is not some kind of trump card you can play to get whatever you want from whomever you want it.
Never said it was.
The rest of your comment is similarly meaningless. You must have misunderstood me. The service would, and could, be denied because they are asking for a Nazi-themed service. Being a Nazi is a choice, not an immutable trait, nor a protected class.
Nowhere have I said that gay people shouldn’t be denied service for any reason, only that they shouldn’t be denied service because they’re gay.
How are you feeling about your statement right now?
Exactly the same as before you made your utterly irrelevant comment.
You’re confusing ideology with identity.
Being a member of a protected class is not some kind of trump card you can play to get whatever you want from whomever you want it.
Which is equivalent to saying you want to bring back “whites only” or “no gays” signs and whatever else. No thanks.
And let’s be clear. We aren’t actually talking about getting “whatever” from “whomever.” We are talking about people who are members of a group (not by choice) having the right to expect the same treatment as others from a business open to the public.
On the other hand, you have stated, essentially, bigoted owners of businesses open to the public can deny business to anyone who holds this proverbial membership card you mention.
You’re right, but that’s an unpopular take in this hive mind.
Lemmy folk can’t handle reality that contradicts their ideals.
This feels like it should be Libertarian 101. Thought the communities were left here, but apparently they just say that to feel good.
I think the difference comes down to creative outlets. Just like with the “create a website for same-sex weddings”. I also feel a photographer should be able to deny a Trump themed wedding or cake. But if it’s a general service or product offered to everyone, you shouldn’t be able to deny a person just for being gay or black or anything protected. I don’t know if I’m elaborating my thoughts about it well but do you get where I’m coming from?
A wedding photographer offers their services to everyone having weddings. If that photographer refuses to photograph same-sex weddings, is that not the same as denying service to someone over their sexuality?
You make a good point and I thought the same thing after I made my initial comments. Another one I thought about was what if a person truly strongly believed in segregation, even maybe it being a part of their religion. Does that mean it’s ok for them to deny black people? That makes me deeply uncomfortable to put it lightly; I don’t think that is justifiable.
At the same time, there is something very personal about creative pursuits. Graphic artists can reject any idea and they don’t have to justify it. And this is something that is custom made for each customer. If the artist isn’t interested, and even is morally opposed to performing the work, even if they were legally required to do it, is it going to be their best work? Can they be penalized for deliberately doing a terrible job? I don’t know
The United States has long held that creative work, art basically, is a form of Speech and protected under the 1st Amendment. This means that compelling art is the same compelling speech and boy howdy are there a bunch of laws around that, laws that society really needs to have.
So it’s a collision between rights:
On the one side we have the Photographer and their Constitutional Claims to not be compelled to create art (speak) and their right to not do something that is against their religion.
On the other side we have a LGBTQ person and their Constitutional Claim to not be denied services as a member of a protected class.
We currently draw the line by protecting the right to not be compelled to speak. In practical terms this means that buying a standard per-packaged Good or Service cannot be denied to people in a protected class. If a member of that protected class wants to purchase a Good or Service that would require creative input then the seller can refuse.
It becomes more clear if you create a scenario where someone in a protected class wants something distasteful. Let say that this Nazi here is gay and getting married to this Nazi here. They roll into one of these fine bakeries in New York and demand a custom cake in the shape of Hitler standing on a base that says “Blood and Soil” with little red fondant swastikas between each letter.
They also need a wedding photographer but their Hitler Themed wedding has a 7’ tall statute of the guy standing underneath a banner that says “Arbeit Macht Frei” and they really want a shot of the two of them standing next to that statue in their finest Hugo Boss tuxedo’s while they both kiss Hitler’s cheeks.
So how does Society decide this mess? Do we force the Jewish bakery to make that cake because the buyers are minorities and gay? Do we force the photographer to take those pictures? Would YOU want to be forced to do either of those?
I sure as hell wouldn’t because what they want is deeply and personally offensive. This is why we protect against compelled speech.
Not saying this is a perfect analogy, but consider housing. If you are renting or selling real estate, you can not discriminate based on protected classes. However, if you are renting a room with shared spaces, you can deny applicants for any reason.
To say that anyone can be a photographer belittles the skill associated with a professional photographer. That’s akin to saying that you can hire anyone with a voice to be a singer. Sure, you can, but there’s a qualitative difference.
That aside, would there be any sign that the photographer could put on their door that would be illegal? No Blacks, No Jews, No Women, etc… If not, play that to the logical extreme; What if all photographers in town had the same sign? What services are appropriate to deny in entirety to a specific class of people.
That’s akin to saying that you can hire anyone with a voice to be a singer. Sure, you can, but there’s a qualitative difference.
Yes anyone with a camera can be a photographer just like anyone with a paintbrush can be a painter. Just because it takes skill to be good at them doesn’t mean the unskilled are just babies with fisherprice cameras pretending.
Whether you see it or not, your opinion is carving out a way for legal bigotry when done by a christian. Of course an atheist refusing to serve this asshole bigot would open up the door for a religious discrimination case against the atheist because bigots want nothing more than to divide society. We have no obligation to defend a bigot’s rights they are actively taking those same rights away from others.
No. He gets to choose who to work for. He doesn’t get to choose not to work for entire classes of people when those classes are protected.
It’s the same as if he said he didn’t want black clients.
I mean…now you’re getting into the realm of words vs actions.
In the case of a freelance contract worker, there’s a difference between saying “I don’t do work for gays and blacks” and keeping your mouth shut (or providing some excuse like that you’re already too booked) and no-quoting that work, in effect not working for these groups.
However in both cases, I believe it is (and should be) legal.
Rude and offensive, sure, but I feel it’s a situation where you have to allow assholes to be assholes because the alternative is compulsory work which opens a whole new can of worms and is an even bigger restriction on freedoms.
So many people in these comments are trying to legislate morality, and it’s just a non-starter in these circumstances.
This potentially opened the floodgates for discrimination. Unless this is specifically only for for “hired” or “contract” If not…. Coming soon to stores in the south near you
“NO F****TS ALLOWED”
“TRA***ES NOT WELCOME”
I don’t think he has the right to make his business known publicly if it isn’t available to the public-- all of it.
What a dumb take. There are plenty of businesses that advertise to the public but are not open to serving the public.
What if it’s purely a subject matter question? Surely you wouldn’t be OK with a wedding photographer being forced to stay around for some spicier honeymoon pictures if they didn’t want to photograph adult activity…
They shouldn’t be blocked from being a photographer just because they’re unwilling to photograph ALL subjects. That’s fucking stupid.
Unfortunately this is a strawman argument. The subject in question is a wedding. It shouldn’t matter what sexuality or race the people are.
There’s a difference between filming/photography of pornography vs a wedding. Don’t be disingenuous suggesting that the mere act of being gay equates the same to pornography.
While I agree about a photographer not having to photograph things they don’t want to, as someone else said, where do you put that line in the sand?
If the private business of a photographer can deny their services, can the private business of a hospital deny their services for those same reasons?
The problem is it’s a hard discussion to have as on the one hand you want private businesses to be able to give bigoted folks the boot, but then private businesses of bigots can then throw you out all the same. Advocating for the first does mean unintentionally advocating for the latter.
The bigger problem is why are there private hospitals.
That’s a much easier answer. Money and
briberylobbying.
Eh, if he want to leave money on the table, that is his business, I am sure there are plenty of people in a small town seeing the niche the guy just opened, the “Don’t be an asshole” niche.
The discriminating photographer will find that more than just LGBT people don’t want to support him. How many more is absolutely up for debate, but probably enough to support a new photographer
Why shouldn’t he be forced to photograph things he doesn’t want to photograph? If he just photographed things he wanted to, it would be a hobby. He’s not hanging around weddings taking photos for fun. He’s being paid to do a job, and the job is the same whether it is two men, two women, or one of each.
Apply the same logic to someone who didn’t want to photograph Asian people. “Hey, I know you’re in love, but I don’t condone your marriage because my God says Asian people shouldn’t get married. Sorry.”
It’s not that he should be forced to work for people he hates. It’s that he should not be allowed to be in the business at all if he wants to discriminate against his clients.
This is about my position. If somebody wants to discriminate, then a business is not the right structure for them. Same with public service, if you choose to be mayor, your responsibility is to everyone, not just a preferred subset.
Edit: To go further, talking about where to draw the line. I think for a business that’s an easy answer, the law. As a photo business for example they’d have have the duty to be available for hire to photograph any legal activity. But someone asking to photograph abuse or something is crossing the line.
I agree with that last point. You can’t be required to photograph crimes, and I’ll take it a step further and say you don’t have to offer your services to everyone. A wedding photographer doesn’t have to do proms, and a baker doesn’t have to make cookies. But if you photograph weddings and you bake wedding cakes, you can and should be prohibited from discriminating against clients based on your religion.
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That’s not a protected class. 100% ok.
They have no class
nice
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Tolerance is a social contract. If one party does not practice tolerance, they have voided their right to be a part of that contract. People that support someone like Trump have revoked their place the contract of tolerance.
Was it you.
Even more than the outright bigotry, what concerns me most is this growing trend of conservative ideology that allows for lawsuits without cause. You shouldn’t be able to sue unless you are harmed. That’s the way its supposed to work. Yet these conservative courts have been turning that concept entirely on its head lately.
Um that’s not true at all. You are absolutely allowed to challenge the precedence of laws even if you have been yet to be directly affected.
So no speeding tickets, no health inspection, no mandatory safety procedures, etc.?
All of that is enforced through laws that originate from lawsuits.
More work for the intelligent ones that don’t discriminate.
Nobody seems to be asking the main question: why would LGBT+ couples want to hire an open homophobe to take their wedding pictures to begin with?
I feel like framing the issue like this kinda dangerous. If a single entity (in this case, a business) is allowed to discriminate against a protected class, then are all businesses that provide that service allowed to discriminate against said class?
It seems as though they would be. That gets us back to a version of the Jim Crow South pretty quickly. How are LGBTQ+ folks supposed to exist as equal members in a society if entire segments of that society are legally allowed to close themselves off? What happens when a business that controls major segments of more important service sectors makes a similar decision (for example, say the only Level 1 trauma center in a city is in a privately-owned, religiously-affiliated medical center that now has a legal precedent to say they won’t serve LGBTQ+ patients for religious reasons)?
In 303 Creative v. Elenis the answer is: the couple was manufactured. No LGBT+ couple tried to hire them. The man named in court docs who supposedly tried to hire 303 Creative first heard about the case when reporters contacted him shortly before the Supreme Court released their decision. He has been happily married (to a woman) for a long time, and had no need for a wedding website.
I can´t believe I actually have to say this but here it comes: Everyone should be free to choose the things they do and don´t do. Nobody should be forced by law to do things they don´t want to do. This goes for LGBTQ+ people just as it goes for photographers and all other humans in this world. I support human rights 100%, which obviously especially includes discriminated minorities like LGBTQ+. However, I have to say that the framing in the article and it´s title, are edgy af and sound like based on an extremist, culture warrior ideology, instead of rational thinking and common sense.
“I don’t want to treat black people or LGBTQ like human beings.” – like that? Or how about signs on businesses “No Gays” or “No Hispanics”. Does this apply to government entities and their employees? How about it enough people don’t want to drink out of the same public fountain as black people, should we then bring back segregated fountains since everyone has a right to drink from fountains?
Sorry, but showing bigotry cannot be accepted by a tolerant society because it breaks the one tenet of such a society: be tolerant.
The thing you’re ignoring is that being rejected by businesses is harmful to those being rejected. And moreover public businesses discriminating is a great way to fracture society and uphold a culture of bigotry and discrimination that then bleeds into every other area. If your religion teaches you to be a bigoted asshole then you need a different religion.
If you run a business, you don’t have a right to discriminate against whole groups of people.
They absolutely have the right to post such things(first amendment). They just have to be willing to accept any consequences as a result.
So in your example Black people have no right to a service if the location does not wish to serve them? If the next closest location is a days drive away so be it? Maybe they just need to go live closer to those services?
Yes. As a business owner they can refuse business to anyone. They also have to deal with any fallout as a result of such a racist policy.
There should be some class of protections, maybe some civil code of rights or something…
Unfortunately, i think these only pertain to hiring of individuals.
An atheist living in Saudi Arabia absolutely has the right to walk into the public square and shout that god does not exist. They just have to be willing to accept the consequences of execution as a result.
Stating a fact of physical ability does not contribute any additional information in a discussion about legality.
I stated the amendment pertaining to my comment.
You absolutely do not have the right to post a sign like “No Hispanics” at your restaurant, under current US law (Civil Rights Act of 1964). You do not have to wait for an actual hispanic person to show up and be refused service to be liable - the presence of the sign alone is already in violation and can get you fined or imprisoned. You cannot claim “This sign is just for decoration as an expression of my 1st Amendment rights, we would never actually enforce it.” In this way, the Civil Rights Act already does abridge your right to write any sign you want, ironically in direct contradiction to the “Congress shall make no law” language of the 1st Amendment.
So they can post the sign as long as it’s just decoration? The fuck are you talking about?
Explain to me how the first amendment pertains at all to refusing service to people based on race or sexual orientation.
Then rejecting a Christian should be perfectly legal. Soery mate, O don’t serve christians because I’m atheist.
Sure, obviously you should have the right to do so, if that´s what you want to do. That is exactly what I meant to express when I wrote “Everyone should be free to choose”. Apologies if I did somehow not express that clearly enough in my first comment.
You did they’re just taking it personally.
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That’s totally fine. You shouldn’t be forced to work with people you don’t want to work with.
Yeah no. Replace gay with with black and you have your answer . There was a civil rights era fought over this exact discrimination. The sctous is currently full of political hacks
Nobody should be forced by law to do things they don´t want to do.
That’s not going to work. There are many kinds of people, and some of the things they want to do or refuse to do are disruptive or dangerous.
That guy doesn’t want to take care of his home projects, and now toxic smoke is blowing into his neighbors houses. Are you going to just say “well he doesn’t want to deal with that, so the law can’t make him”? I hope not because that creates a shitty world for everyone.
So maybe you meant something different and more limited than what you wrote?
I think the implication in all personal freedom discussions is: freedom so long as it doesn’t unnecessarily harm others. You may have freedom of speech in America, but that doesn’t protect the right to falsely yell “fire” in a crowded theater.
Sure, but that brings us right back to “does refusing service to someone harm them?”
Sure it does. Notice i said unreasonable harm. There is a clear distinction between refusing to take someone’s wedding photo and providing someone with life saving care.
There are US Court cases that deal with this distinction.
Edit: i originally said unnecessarily as opposed to unreasonably… But the point still stands
So maybe you meant something different and more limited than what you wrote?
No, just more limited than your interpretation. I never meant to imply that “Nobody should be forced by law to do things they don´t want to do.” should cancel out all of people’s personal responsibilities. Nobody who offers a service is responsible to offer that service to everyone imo. Imagine a gay person working in any field, could be forced by law, to provide their service to neo-nazis and you might see how pointless your approach is in practice.
Glad we agree that we don’t want an unbounded freedom from responsibility.
But I mean if you don’t force people to serve the entire public you risk some presumably unwanted consequences. Should a whole grocery chain be able to say no blacks? What if it’s the only one in the town? Should realtors be allowed to refuse to sell houses to non whites? What if that means all the black people get forced into one part of town, and coincidentally that part has shitty services and other unwanted traits?
Is the rule “as long as there’s alternatives it’s ok”? Separate but equal was already decided to be unequal.
On the other hand, I do want to be able to refuse service to Nazis. Maybe the key is naziism is wholly something you choose. But I also don’t want people to be able to refuse service to, like, union members.
There’s no universal “anti social behavior” metric, unfortunately, I don’t think.
But I mean if you don’t force people to serve the entire public you risk some presumably unwanted consequences. Should a whole grocery chain be able to say no blacks? What if it’s the only one in the town? Should realtors be allowed to refuse to sell houses to non whites? What if that means all the black people get forced into one part of town, and coincidentally that part has shitty services and other unwanted traits?
Those are examples of public, structural discrimination, which imo is the kind of discrimination that is manageable with laws pretty well. However there is also the kind of individual, private discrimination that can not really be solved by the law. I think it absolutely should be illegal for a company to openly discriminate a group, let’s say by putting up a “No XY” sign and officially not serving XY. However, I also see the limits of how much such laws can do in practice. For example despite such a law being in place, a company could easily still not serve XY -just inofficially- and simply claim a full schedule whenever XY people show up/call, without the law being able to do anything about it. That is why I think laws are not enough and in the end a real social change is necessary to end these types of unjust discrimination.
Is the rule “as long as there’s alternatives it’s ok”? Separate but equal was already decided to be unequal.
Discrimination based on inherent traits is unjust af and therefore can never be “okay”.
On the other hand, I do want to be able to refuse service to Nazis.
I feel the same
Maybe the key is naziism is wholly something you choose. But I also don’t want people to be able to refuse service to, like, union members.
It’s not a simple topic, right? On one hand, I would want it to be legal to put up a “we don serve Nazis” sign, on the other hand, one could argue that someone who was born into a Nazi family and was constantly spoon fed the ideology from the beginning, never really had a chance to not become a Nazi.
There’s no universal “anti social behavior” metric, unfortunately, I don’t think.
In the end I think only education that leads to the understanding that people who are different from you are not your enemies, can help the problem.
While I agree with you in theory, the problem is that this Christian photographer likely has screamed cAnCeL CuLtUrE at some point when someone denied them access to something, like during the pandemic when businesses required masks.
“Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition, to wit: There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect."
Having looked at his photos, I’m gonna say this is no big loss for the LGBTQ+ community. They’re marginally better than the stuff advertised on Nextdoor, but man really went all in on the vignettes, and he doesn’t seem to have any eye for detail.
But also, fuck the Supreme Court for allowing this nonsense.
Sigh. US politics really wants me to become an anarchist.
How is his policy/service any different from a whites only lunch counter?
It isn’t.
The line seems to be based around custom services or requiring artistic impression. Just selling tacos with choice of 5 toppings, can’t discriminate. Selling tacos with custom designs on the tortillas, can discriminate.
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It’s a single independent contractor performing a service considered to be bespoke skilled labor. He has no obligation to enter a work contract the same way I can’t force you to clean my gutters. A chow house on the other hand, serves the same food to everyone. There’s no contact to enter, only goods to be purchased.
Can a dentist have a non-gay/non-black policy?
Not that I personally agree, but per the Supreme Court, probably.
With that said, on what planet would a black person even want some racist bigot working on their teeth?? There’s a huge risk of him being a total piece of shit and doing a terrible or deliberately malicious job.
Why is society obligated to allow a discriminatory business like this to exist?
Why do we just take as a given that anyone is allowed to start a business?
No one said otherwise, just pointing out why Walmart can’t deny your right to buy a redbull but I have no obligation to fix a computer with a Nazi flag stickers on it.
But our existence is not some kind of political opinion. If a wedding photographer won’t take jobs from interracial couples because he thinks that they sully the white race or some shit it is not really different from the stuff this guy did. And my example would hopefully fall under any anti-discrimnation laws.
Honest question, In your mind, should I be legally compelled to work on systems operated by people openly racist towards me?
What exactly do you mean with “systems”?
I would say no to that because there is a big difference between refusing to work for someone that holds a discriminatory ideology and refusing to work for someone that is some category of human they hate especially if they can’t actually do something about being in that category like with skin colour or being LGBTQ+.
You can’t be tolerant of intolerance if you call yourself tolerant.
That right to refuse work based on your personal ideology has to cut both ways, otherwise those in power get to decide what is a ‘just’ reason for refusal of services and what is an ‘unjust’ reason. If the right group of racists were in power, then I could be legally compelled to perform services for those who are openly hostile towards me, which you yourself seem to intimate would be ‘unjust’
In the same way that I can choose not to take a job at Nestle because of how they treat our freshwater supply, I can also choose not to work on Jimbobs computer because he doesn’t believe the Holocaust happened.
Also ‘systems’ was just a placeholder to clarify I wasn’t selling commodites, sorry for any confusion there.
I’m not sure I see how the product of his photography service(however bespoke) is any different from the product of the meal and a place to eat. Everyone at the chow house is arguably getting a bespoke experience as well since there’s more than one seat and presumably you not every meal is going to be prepared in the exact same way and may in fact involve customization like the rarity of a steak or thes submission or removal of ingredients(eg ‘no cheese’).
My understanding is that a business is still allowed to deny service to any singular customer for no explicit reason. It’s the matter of stating and enforcing a policy of discrimination against a protected class.
You can’t force me to clean your gutters, but you also could sue me if I refused to clean your gutters by showing you my policy that I refuse to do business with anyone belonging to whatever protected class you fall under. Because the policy of discrimination is what’s illegal and not the individual act of discrimination itself.
Also, I’m pretty sure purchasing a good still legally qualifies as a form of a contract in tort law. Ofc I am in no way a lawyer so please, anyone, correct me if ive misunderstood here.
Waiting for the first Christian couple to be denied the photographers services, to lose their shit about it! It happened when that bakerdid it and it will happen here.
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You folks got the priorities upside-down
Our backwards, unelected Supreme Court is to blame for this bullshit.
Thank You RBG, for clinging to power right to the bitter end.
Yeah I do question why she didn’t retire.
They were convinced Trump didn’t have a shot at winning and the legislative branch was also intentionally holding up new judge appointments in Obama’s last term.
Yup, who would’ve thought that in the end, RBG and Mitch McConnell would be the wonder twins of any political goal?
When he refused to even bring the Garland vote to the floor, that’s when I knew I’d make a terrible leader.
The way our system is set up that a single politician who is only elected by half the population of Kentucky can unilaterally alter the composition of the highest court in the land for decades by deciding not to do his job is absolutely ridiculous. And if I were able to call the shot when it happened, I’d have seen him at the end of a short rope on the front lawn of the capitol for it. I know that’s not the legal, moral, responsible way of handling situations like that, but that’s what I’d have liked to see.
Yeah very relatable. This tyranny of the minority bullshit conservatives are pulling off is infuriating. And every time it feels like they get handled with kid gloves.
May her legacy always show how her arrogance regarding her health and who should replace her made the country objectively worse.
And now Biden is doing it, too. These fucks just don’t seem to know when it’s time to take up pickleball and let someone else have a turn with the torch.
No one should be forced to participate in something they disagree with. Whenever I’m trying to figure out if denial of service is reasonable, I imagine it with nazis. For example wedding cakes. If a gay couple goes to a bakery for a wedding cake, they should absolutely be able to purchase a standard wedding cake, and it’s none of the baker’s business what they use it for. But the baker should not be forced to decorate in a specifically gay way (like a topper with a pair of men). If a gross couple wants to have a nazi wedding, they should absolutely be able to purchase a standard wedding cake, and it’s none of the baker’s business what they use it for. But the baker should not be forced to pipe a swastika on it.
If it’s reasonable for a photographer to feel uncomfortable working a nazi wedding, it’s reasonable for one to feel uncomfortable working a gay wedding.
Obviously there’s an enormous difference between being gay and being a nazi. I’m not equating those things. I’m equating the feeling of repulsion and discomfort of the one providing the service.
You’re also equating the cause of the feeling of repulsion.
You’re repulsed by Nazis because Nazis are evil.
Why are you repulsed by gay people? Hate. Yes, even if disguised behind “religious reasons.”
Regardless, I’m not saying that we must force the photographer to “work while being repulsed” (and I wouldn’t want anyone on my wedding day that I know is repulsed by it anyway, but I digress.) I’m saying that we must continue peeling off that core of a hateful onion that is religion and bigotry until nothing is left.
And having said that: don’t want to deal with “the gays”? Don’t start a business in a place where gay people are protected. I’d say this ruling is in the wrong.
Also, I believe the photographer should be able to reject a job due to its type of content. Hear me out. Gay wedding? Yes. Gay wedding with a dildo theme? Nah. Straight wedding? Yes. Straight wedding with a cat killing theme? Nah.
I’m not religious, and I don’t agree with the sentiment, but their hate stems from them believing it’s evil. They may see it just as evil as a nazi. I think they’re wrong, but that’s the nature of opinions and assholes. Everybody has one.
I think the difference to me is that sexual orientation is a protected class where political affiliation is not, in our government. Apparently, the courts disagree with me…
That’s literally what discrimination laws are for. You can’t officially hate people on the basis of a protected category (race, sexuality, etc…). You can officially hate Nazis, you can’t officially hate gays.
The gays/nazis comparison was ridiculous because it ignores this key distinction: we, as a people, have decided it’s not OK to hate (in so far as it leads to discrimination) people for certain innate reasons.
The ruling is absolutely not wrong.
You can’t force someone to do something they don’t want to do. Full stop. Whether they don’t want to do it for good, bad, racist, homophobic etc reasons, is irrelevant.
No matter how much you support peace, love and happiness, you can’t start telling others what they can and can’t do. You have the right to refuse service for whatever reason.
how many years ago did people make this argument to refuse to serve black people?
Genetics are understood to account up to 40% of gay men’s sexual identities. Why should we allow businesses to make exceptions on a potentially genetic basis?
You can’t force someone to do something they don’t want to do. Full stop.
If you are a business serving the public, yes you the fuck can.
Whether they don’t want to do it for good, bad, racist, homophobic etc reasons, is irrelevant.
We had an entire Civil Rights Act about it. It prohibits discrimination on the basis of race, color, religion, sex or national origin.
Read a fucking book.
Lmaooooo you’re comparing two dudes kissing to a genocidal, white supremacist disctatorship. Get real.
Those aren’t the same situations. You’re allowed to discriminate against Nazis or people who own a ficus, but not gays. It’s not an arbitrary line, it’s a legally well defined distinction.
In both cases you don’t want to offer those people a service because of hatred. You’re allowed to hate people and discriminate against them for a variety of reasons. As a society we’ve legally decided that it’s not acceptable to hate (insofar as it leads to discrimination) for many reasons innate to a person (race, religion, sexual orientation, etc…). That’s the line.
I’m pretty sure you choose to be a hateful spiteful Nazi. You don’t choose to be gay. There’s a HUGE difference. It is a bad faith argument to equate holding hateful views and opinions to being born different. With that reasoning, the feeling of discomfort when an owner sees a black person or an Asian person is acceptable grounds to deny services to them.
Does this in return mean that LGBTQ+ couples win the right to discriminate against christian photographers?
